Hi, I'm Jonathan Lehman, and with me is my good pastor and friend, well, former pastor and friend, Mark Devere.

And welcome to this episode of Nine Marks Pastors Talk.

Nine Marks exist to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches.

How come you're always welcoming me to stuff in my own study?

Because you sit there and you stare at me when it's your time to say who you are.

That, for instance, the secret of what's going on here every time you're going on this.

I'm glad you're here to spend this time together at the end of the day.

Thanks for having me.

Hey, what's the big dude over there doing here?

And we also have with us, Bobby Jameson.

Hey, guys.

Oh, is this the Bobby who actually knew Carl Truman back when he was a Baptist?

I didn't know.

I think that was you, Mark.

You knew him when he was a Baptist.

Oh, I did know him when he was a Baptist. Baptists. Those were good years for his understanding of baptism. Former Baptist Carl Truman has written a great book.

But hasn't he written that new book called The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self? It's a great one.

And didn't you write a review of it? I did. Yeah, for CBMW. Yeah. And the review, you said it has

based, the book has basically three things. It talks about a three-part movement. Yes. In history. Uh-huh. What's that movement?

The rise and triumph of the modern self.

Well, it depends if you're talking about his use of Philip Reef or if you're talking about his overall narrative.

His overall narrative.

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