Hi, I'm Jonathan Lehman.

And with me now, staring at his computer, is the one, the only Mark E. Devere.

Nine Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches.

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Is that your computer beeping mark?

I think that is your computer beeping.

Today, brother, I'd love to discuss the topic of how pastors ought to prepare people for eternity. And the reason I want to think about this is because

we're recording this shortly after the 2020 U.S. elections. And lately, there's been such a

huge emphasis on political engagement and justice in the kingdoms of this world. And I don't want

to take away from those emphases, but I do think unless we deliberately remind

ourselves and our people that there's something even bigger, even weightier, even more important

than the kingdoms of this world, will lose the gospel. So, Mark, amidst all the salutary emphasis

on political discipleship, which is something I think you and I both

in our own ways do. Do you worry that Christians at this moment of American history are at risk

of losing sight of eternity and the new heavens and the new earth?

I think Christians are always at risk of that.

I agree. I thought you might say that.

What are some of the temptations of this particular moment that make this a risk for us?

I think how loud some of our brothers and sisters are being, how emphatic they are, about how important this is and that is, and seeming to overshadow things that in the past we thought were the most important things we could think about, but they're finding other reasons to,

on the one hand, divide, on the other hand, unite with new people.

Yeah.

Are we talking about heaven less?

...