Hi, I'm Jonathan Lehman.

Welcome to this episode of Nine Marks Pastors Talk.

Nine Marks exists to equip church leaders of the biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches.

Learn more at nine marks.org.

Today I have with me an old friend of mine named Michael Lawrence, who is the pastor

of Hinson Baptist Church and the author of the book, Conversion, How God Creates a People. Michael,

thank you for being here. It's great to be here, gentlemen. You and I met when?

In 1997, probably.

And that's when I started discipling you?

That's when I think I called you a punk.

That's when I was a punk.

You were a punk.

That's right.

Because I'm not now.

No, no.

Yeah, so 1997 I had just moved to D.C. with my wife and we were hanging out at Capitol Hill Baptist, and you were there as a young punk.

I think you were in a magazine, magazine editor or something like that.

Yeah.

And you were there for a year, then you went away for your Ph.D. at Cambridge, and then you came back as the associate pastor at Capitol Hill, and we spent time together and got to know each other pretty well at that point. That's right.

Served his elders together. Served his elders. And then you left for Henson, what year? I left in 2010.

Okay. And Michael and I have kept up through the years pretty closely. Very grateful for his friendship.

Grateful for your work on this book, brother,

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