This is Annie Grace and you're listening to this naked mind podcast where without

judgment, pain or rules, we explore the role of alcohol in our lives and culture.

Hi, this is Annie Grace at this naked mind podcast and today I'm excited to have Don

nickel on. So Don and I met what was it almost two years ago and at least it's just so awesome

to have you here. So let me let me say who you are. Okay. So Don is the founder of Shoe

Recoverers, which is this absolutely beautiful foundation, which I believe you founded

with your daughter. Is that correct? Yeah, it's not a foundation actually. We're going

to start a foundation in a few years, but it is, it's an LLC. So it is a company and

I founded it and then my daughter joined me about a year later. My daughter, Terence

Strong, yeah. Oh, it's so cool. We say we're co-creators. Co-creators. And Don also has

a PhD. So super smart and you also work as a consultant and mental health of substance

use disorder specifically and intimate partner violence all very loaded but important

important topics and work and related and yeah, massively related. And so I think what's

so amazing about your business is specifically and why I really wanted to have you on here

is your approach of just there's so many different paths and so many different roads and

it's so incredibly beautifully inclusive. And so you armor really all all methods.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's foundational. I guess. And the premise for that I think

was, you know, as a woman in recovery from substance use disorder for now 30 years, about

six years ago, kind of what tipped us over into the shoe recover thing that's going on

is about what is the year 2018? It's February, 20, let's seven years now. I've been saying

six years for so long, but seven years ago, I hit the wall with workaholism. You know,

I've been, you know, without, you know, I'm a person who chooses abstinence and I don't

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