Hey, everybody, welcome. And thank you for listening to this episode of Marriage Therapy Radio.

My name is Zach Brittle. I'm here with Laura Hecht. Today we're here with Matthew Frey, Matt Frey,

who is one of the coolest guys we've talked to in a really long time. He is the author of a book called

This Is How Your Marriage Ends. But he's also just really, really thoughtful about how to lean into relationships with the

soft skills that are needed around empathy and compassion.

He goes into that quite a bit.

We really love talking to him.

We will also celebrate one of our listeners, Edna, who has written in and asked some questions

for Matt and also who is one of our donors to

Laura's fundraiser for Holden. If that's your jam, go ahead and donate on our page,

MaritotherapyRadio.com. But for now, I hope you'll really just take in what Matthew has to

offer. We sure did. This is a very cool conversation. Stick around.

You know what I see in the background? What do you see? I see Terry Reel's book. Yeah.

And I see Susan Johnson's book. I have, I've been writing, I've been doing this like 10 or 11 years,

you know, amateurly. And what I was consistently hearing at the beginning was that what it was writing was sort of like the, I don't know how to say it without being like exceedingly self-deprecating, but sort of like the dumb guy version of Terry Real's work. It was like, the approachable version. Yeah. The every man. There you go. Yeah.

And I was like, okay.

And I looked into it. He's a great guy.

I ended up befriending a couple of people who have like trained with him.

And so I do think we just sort of like accidentally landed on the same things.

But again, Terry, like you guys from a

much more sort of academic and intelligent perspective and me more from the bumbling guy who got

divorced perspective. Yeah. Well, we, that's kind of the podcast, though. I was reading your,

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