Ep. 230 - John Dominic Crossan & Michael Okinczyc-Cruz "Jesus and Justice" pt. 2
The Deconstructionists
John Williamson
4.4 • 823 Ratings
🗓️ 24 February 2026
⏱️ 51 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
In Part Two of our conversation with John Dominic Crossan and Michael Okinczyc-Cruz, we move from historical foundations to present-day consequences.
Once Jesus is understood within the realities of Roman imperial power, the implications become unavoidable — especially in a moment when Christianity in the United States is increasingly entangled with political authority, violence, and domination.
In this episode, we explore:
- The meaning of the “Kingdom of God” in contrast to imperial power
- Nonviolence, resistance, and the cost of discipleship
- How Christianity shifted from challenging empire to aligning with it
- The difference between domination systems and distributive justice
- Why these ancient tensions feel so familiar today
This isn’t about telling listeners what to believe politically.
It’s about asking whether Christianity still resembles the movement it began as — or whether comfort and power have rewritten the story.
Why This Conversation Matters Now
The questions raised in this episode aren’t abstract or theoretical. They echo loudly in today’s debates about nationalism, violence, faith, and identity in the United States.
By grounding the conversation in history, Crossan and Okinczyc-Cruz offer listeners tools — not talking points — to think critically about how faith operates in the real world.
Continue the Conversation
If this episode resonated with you, we encourage you to explore the works linked above and join us for ongoing discussions at www.thedeconstructionsts.org where you can join our Patreon, read our blog, and listen to our entire back catalogue of over 200 episodes!
Special music provide by: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Jesus was a follower of John. I don't say he was his number one follower. I just say he was one of the crowd. |
| 0:06.0 | But he was one of the crowd. So he accepted that vision from John. We will reenact Exodus and the exile and God will come. |
| 0:14.0 | I think the conversion of Jesus is that Jesus realized, had to realize, where was God when John was executed? Couldn't he have moved up the |
| 0:22.4 | date a week or two? And I think Jesus's great conversion, I've no other term, is that God doesn't |
| 0:29.1 | work like that. We're waiting for God to do it for us. We repent, we wait, we pray, then God will come |
| 0:35.8 | and take care of the Romans. What if God is waiting |
| 0:38.4 | for us? That means they're both waiting for each other, nothing's going to ever happen. And Jesus |
| 0:43.0 | would say, what do you think has not been happening for the last thousand years? You're waiting |
| 0:48.0 | for God, God's waiting for you. |
| 0:57.8 | Welcome to the Deconstructionist podcast. |
| 0:59.2 | I'm your host John Williamson. |
| 1:01.5 | And thank you for coming back. |
| 1:04.3 | If you listened to Part 1 last week, then this is Part 2. |
| 1:07.4 | If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, I would recommend pausing. |
| 1:10.3 | Go back and listen to Part 1 so that Part two makes sense. But again, in part one, |
| 1:13.3 | we set the stage, the world of the Roman Empire, the historical Jesus, and the conditions that |
| 1:17.8 | shape the earliest Christian movement. In the second part, the conversation moves from history |
| 1:22.3 | to consequence, because once you take Jesus seriously as a first century Jewish figure, |
| 1:29.3 | living under imperial occupation, certain questions stop being abstract, especially in a moment like the one we're living through in the United States. |
| 1:35.3 | In this episode, John Dominic Crosson, and again, I am so sorry if I screw this name up, but Michael Okinsic Cruz |
| 1:42.3 | help us trace that tension from the earliest Jesus |
| 1:45.2 | movements to the patterns we can still recognize today. We talk about violence, nonviolence, |
... |
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