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And now from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN, the Axviles with your host

David Axelrod.

There is no one who's written and spoken more provocatively about the institutions of Washington,

the norm, ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute.

And there's no one who's become over four decades more of an institution in Washington,

someone who is known to every office holder, all journalists, someone who is quoted widely

and who has in recent years written very, very directly about the threats that he sees

to our democratic institutions that have only sharpened in the era of Trump.

In fact, his latest book is called One Nation After Trump, a guide for the perplexed,

the disillusioned, the desperate, and the not yet deported.

And we both were slated to speak at the Kennedy Forum on mental illness, an issue that's

touched both our lives.

It was an interesting conversation.

Norm Ornstein, it's great to be with you.

You, there's so much to talk about.

But before we talk about the obvious things that we must talk about, I want to talk a

little bit about you because I learned a lot, I've known you for a long time, but I've

learned a lot about you and getting ready for this discussion.

...