I'm Alan Olga and this is Clear In Vivit. Conversations about connecting and communicating.

Our first year of the pandemic especially was characterized by us trying to work out what was going on and just going for long walks every morning and every evening around our block.

Trying to make sense of the world and a lot of Liz's ideas and the theory that she was reading about have found their way into my work.

That science journalist Ed Young, his wife Liz Neely is also a science communicator and a believer in the power of story to make science clear in vivid.

Stories are anecdotal and personal by nature. We assess them in a completely different way than evidence-based argumentation.

And so I think they are so powerful and they can be used ethically as a part of rigorous science communication.

I talked with Ed and Liz while they were both squeezed into an impromptu recording studio which was a closet in their apartment, a perfect venue for collaboration.

This is going to be great because I love to talk about communication and you are two experts in communication from slightly different angles but it's one I love what you said Liz once that we're all science communicators now, all of us especially now with COVID.

Oh absolutely our friends and our family are all trying to figure out what to do, what's happening and so we are in positions of sharing information, translating information and it's not just COVID.

Sharing misinformation. Hopefully not.

Hopefully not doing our best not to.

I want to get into that later but let me ask you I'm curious about how you both met here you are one of you Ed a journalist author and Liz a trainer of communication.

There must have been a supernova of communication on your first meeting.

And hilariously we actually met at a science communication conference so you know classic Bohemites girl at a psychon conference story.

I got to step into their spot to facilitate a workshop with Ed and I had strong feelings and opinions as I usually do and told the scientists in the room that they are not show ponies their job isn't to impress journalists and from there I think we had a series of productive arguments over years.

Oh so you actually didn't meet cute it was the nerdiest romcom story.

You mentioned that you disagreed what was the nature of that disagreement.

Oh so can I tell this yes you tell it is my I get to frame it and then you can attempt to reframe.

So I have I started in science I'm a marine biologist by training and I got very interested in power and decision making and I wanted to understand you mean among fish or what.

Oh no among people making decisions on things like climate or a fisheries management.

And so I never was satisfied with answers that came from professionals that were like oh well this is what my editor likes or this is how we've always done it.

I wanted to know what research is there about how people make decisions or how they search for information so I was really into the science of science communication.

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