The rise of China has been one of the great stories of the last century, certainly of my lifetime.

It's by some measures the world's largest economy, it's the world's leading industrial power.

Another major story, of course, has been the rise of the internet, how it's disrupted, shaped,

how we do business, how we do leisure, how we go about our everyday lives.

But the intersection of those two stories, the rise of China and increasingly conspicuous,

ubiquitous internet, is often under-discussed. How has the experience of the internet shaped

Chinese political culture and literature? How has it allowed people to express forms of dissent

with their government? What political and personal possibilities has it created? What kind of

business models has it led to? All of that is discussed

in a fantastic new book by E. Ling Ljul, The Wall Dancers searching for freedom and connection

on the Chinese internet. I am absolutely curious about all of this, particularly because

this is a series of stories and perspectives we simply don't have access to here in the West.

You know and I know what our politicians and media class say about China and certainly what they think about them too.

But how do they view us?

Ealing, welcome to downstream.

Thanks so much for having me.

We're very happy to have you on.

You know, I often find the conversations relating to China, East Asia, some of the most rewarding.

You know Karen how?

I know Karen very well.

Yeah, she was our, I think she was our most watched episode of Downstream in 2025.

I'm not surprised.

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