Hello and welcome to Downstream. I'm Ash Sarkar and I'll be interviewing Michael Pollan,

the author of How to Change Your Mind, the Omnivores Dilemma, and this is your mind

on plants. So, double drop, drink some water, and tune in.

Thank you so much for joining us. I really enjoyed this book, and I read it, I think,

in a park, and I could sort of smell weed smoke, kind of coming from the playground, and

it felt like the perfect environment. But to sort of get right to a fundamental question,

there are lots of things which alter our consciousness or make us feel physically different, but

they're not called drugs. We don't call sex a drug, don't call gambling a drug. So, what

is the definition of a drug that you're using?

Well, good question. There really is no good definition of a drug. I mean, it's a substance

you take into your body that changes you in some way. It could change your body, could

change your mind.

Sure could does that.

Exactly, but there are foods that do that. Chicken soup does that.

A good chicken soup, anyway.

And then a placebo does that. So, the distinction between food and drugs is very difficult

to draw. There are things that are kind of on the edge. But I think most people understand

it as a chemical compound, usually an isolated compound that has an effect when you ingest

it, and is usually regulated according to one scheme or another. It's either approved

for uses over the counter or prescription or its controlled substance, and it has to

be approved by the government. And then you have a bunch, of course, that are illegal.

And that category, illicit drugs, is as hard to define and as arbitrary as anything

...