Is politics a bit boring for you at the moment? And do you experience that as a relief from the

circus that it's sometimes been? Well, enjoy the respite, but let's not be lulled into thinking

there's consensus where there's not. Someone once told me there's a saying in 12-step addiction programs

that while you're in recovery, your addiction is working out and getting stronger in preparation

for when you eventually slip up. And I feel a bit that way about the forces of chaos,

of populism, of authoritarianism and misinformation,

they're getting stronger while we are coasting along going,

oh, actually things seem sort of okay right now.

That's not supposed to be a downer.

It's supposed to be an exhortation for us to continue to aspire to have the sorts of

conversations that will yield the best possible future for all of us. And that's what today's

show is about, about understanding what's going on while the waters are calm, about the conversations

we need to not relax into ceasing to have. Gee, that was a lot of negatives, wasn't it? We need to not

not have. We need to have. There you go. That's simpler, isn't it? Just because the waters are

momentarily calm doesn't mean we should let our guard down. And whatever grievances gave rise

to things like Donald Trump and Brexit and nationalism and authoritarianism in the world over

still need to be addressed, even if

to do so is sometimes unpleasant, sometimes confronting, and often, yes, I went there uncomfortable.

Today on the show, it's one of those rare occasions where I read an article or two by someone I've never heard of and go, oh my goodness, this person is so brilliant, I have to get them on the blower.

Now, this one was recorded, funnily enough, before the US election. And David Roth, my guest today, had written a couple of articles about Donald Trump. And I wanted to interview him to

understand his thinking about populism, Donald Trump's brain and what the next four years

would hold, even if Donald Trump lost the election.

...