I'm Krista Tippett, today with South African Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu on The God of

Surprises, how his understanding of God and humanity has unfolded through the history

he's lived.

There's no question about the reality of evil of injustice, of suffering, but you know,

and the center of this existence is a heart beating with love, you know, that you and

I and all of us are incredible, I mean we really are remarkable things that we are as a matter

of fact, made for goodness.

This is Speaking of Faith, stay with us.

Speaking of Faith is supported by the Fetzer Institute, sponsor of Karan Armstrong's

Charter for Compassion, you can learn more at Fetzer.org.

I'm Krista Tippett, I have been looking forward to having a conversation with Desmond

Tutu for years, and in those years the world has continued to evolve and so has the

perspective of this Nobel Laureate and Archbishop Emeritus.

Tutu helped galvanize South Africa's improbably peaceful transition from a partay to democracy,

yet inequity and violence marked today's South Africa in old forms and new.

Desmond Tutu was also a leader in the religious drama that moved the center of South African

Christianity from complicity and social brutality to hastening its unraveling, yet the Anglican

Church of Desmond Tutu is now driven by a global religious drama around sexual orientation

and leadership.

We'll discuss all these things this hour.

We'll explore how Desmond Tutu's understanding of God and humanity has unfolded through

this history he helped shape and even through his very present friendship with the Dalai Lama.

...