This is the 10th anniversary of Design Matters,

and to mark the anniversary,

we're we playing some favorite shows from the archive.

This one, an interview with Massimo Vignali,

was recorded in September of 2010.

Massimo Vigneli died in 2014.

This is Design Matters with Debbie Millman from Design Observer.com.

On this program, Debbie Millman talks with Massimo Vignale about his favorite typeface,

his fight against vulgarity and meaningless design, and what he means by forceful design.

Design that is emotionally charged, that has intensity on whatever it does.

It's not only harmony, but it's provocative at the same time.

Here's Debbie Millman.

Massimo Vigneli is one of the great design artisans of our time. He has worked on everything

from package design and signage to furniture, interior design, and subway maps. He co-founded Vigneli

associates with his wife, Leila, and clients have included American Airlines, the New York subway, St. Peter's Church, and many others.

Vigneli has said, if you can design one thing, you can design everything.

Welcome to Design Matters, Massimo.

Debbie is my pleasure.

So you began your training as a 16-year-old draftsman at the architect's Castiglione in Milano.

There you were taught the axiom of Adolf Luz that an architect should be able to design everything from the spoon to the city.

I understand that it was at that point in your life that you decided that you wanted to design

everything and first stated that if you can design one thing, you can design everything.

...