You have to understand that when you make the conscious decision not to conform, you keep your dignity, but it might take you longer to get where you want to be, and you might not get there at all.

But is it worth it to make it if you don't arrive there intact?

And I would say that it's not.

This is death, sex, and money.

They kill each other, which is clearly insane.

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot.

Yeah, and he's going to make us a lot of money.

And need to talk about more.

I think we're out of kissing me.

But how long?

Five seconds.

I'm Anna Sale. S seconds. I'm Anna Sale.

Sait. I'm Al Leadsden, and this is kind of a switchup. Now, usually Anna and I work right

next to each other out here in California. I'm the host of Reveal, a podcast and radio show

from the Center for Investigative Reporting. Yep, that's the same place you hear about in the

credits of every death, sex,

and money episode. And Anna and I are buddies, so when she asked me if I'd step in to host an

episode of this show while she was out, I was like, hell yes. And I knew exactly who I wanted

to talk to. Col Hannah Jones. What's up? Waterloo is in the house. Waterloo's always in the house. Nicole Hannah Jones, native of Waterloo, Iowa, staff writer at the New York Times Magazine, and MacArthur Fellow. And the queen of the clapback. Definitely don't come to me with stupid shit. She's also my friend. I am sad that I'm not in New York.

My game plan was to bring you some bourbon and do this.

Was that the plan?

That was the plan?

...