Some people might describe cabri delights as just another cabri bar, a bit samey, very familiar.

Honestly, we'd be chuffed if they did, because delights have that same chocolatey cabri taste you've had a million times before, same soft nougar, same gooey caramel, but they're only 91 calories. So,

samey is exactly what we're going for. Cabri delights. Same cabri, only 91 calories.

Hello and welcome to the Sophie Ridge on Sunday podcast. This week I went to jail, although

fortunately only for a few hours, they did let me out again. And I talked to the Sophie Ridge on Sunday podcast. This week I went to jail, although fortunately only for a few hours,

they did let me out again.

And I talked to the Justice Secretary, David Gork, about prisons.

And after Ireland's historic referendum on abortion,

I asked Labour's John Ashworth if it's the NHS, schools or the public finances.

But few have more of a job on their hands than David Gork, the Justice Secretary, because prisons are

in many ways in crisis. They're overcrowded, staff have been cut, much of the estate is crumbling,

and problems with drugs seem to be just getting worse. And it doesn't help that Mr Gork

is the sixth Justice Secretary since 2010 and the third to have held the office since Theresa May became Prime Minister

that's less than two years ago. But he is determined to start fixing the problems, that's

what he told me anyway. And when I travelled with him to the unfortunately named ISIS prison

in South East London this week, I asked him if he wants to see prisoner numbers going down.

I think the level is higher than I would want it to be.

I don't think one should have an arbitrary number and say we're going to bring it down to a particular number.

But when you put it in context, 25 years ago, we had 44,000 people in prison.

Today it's 84,000. It's been more or less that level for the last eight years.

That's too high you'd say then. I think that's too high.

I would like to bring it down.

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