Hello and welcome to the Americano podcast, a series of discussions about American politics and the Trump presidency.

I'm delighted to be joined today back in London by Paul Wood of the BBC and Tiana Lowe, who is host of the political pregame podcast.

Thanks both for being here. I'd like to talk today about Michael Cohen and his rather

sensational claims that Donald Trump knew about the meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and various

Russian operatives and a very extraordinary British PR man. How significant is this news, if believable, if true,

Paul, I'll ask you first. Well, let's not forget that the initial explanation about this meeting

was all about the adoption of Russian orphans. This was a scarcely credible claim that nobody

believed. President Trump himself apparently is already in trouble because he crafted the

statement saying this, which, if untrue, is possibly some kind of conspiracy to cover up the

real fact of the meeting, which was to get dirt from the Russians on Hillary Clinton.

Now, getting dirt from the Russians doesn't imply any conspiracy, any arrangement that already existed between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

And indeed, people like Roger Stone, President Trump's friend, have said, of course, people are offering us dirt on Hillary Clinton, we're going to accept it.

But this, I think, is a very, very dangerous shot across President Trump's bow by his former

consiglary, bagman and personal lawyer.

And it was leaked to CNN.

I can't think of any more painful betrayal for President Trump, who calls CNN fake news,

of course, than for this to come out on that channel.

Hasn't my question today that he thinks the Trump campaign leaked it?

I wouldn't necessarily believe anything that anybody in this saga says.

It is an entertaining spectacle. President Trump tweeting that his former personal lawyer has betrayed

him by taping these calls. All of this started, of course, with leaks

of conversations about payoffs to women. I'm told by people in the intelligence community, people

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