Welcome back to the podcast, bribe, swindle, or steel.

I'm Alexandra Ragi, and my guest today is Aaron O'Connell.

He's a professor of history and faculty fellow in the Clements Center for National Security

at the University of Texas at Austin.

He has previously served on the National Security Council

as Director of Defense Policy and Strategy and as a special advisor to the chairman of the Joint

Chiefs of Staff and the Pentagon. He's the author of Underdogs, The Making of the Modern Marine

Corps, which explores how the Marine Corps rose from relative unpopularity to become the most

prestigious armed service in the United States. And especially relevant to today's podcast explores how the Marine Corps rose from relative unpopularity to become the most prestigious

armed service in the United States.

And especially relevant to today's podcast, he's the editor of our latest, longest war,

losing hearts and minds in Afghanistan.

It's a critical account of U.S. efforts in Afghanistan since 2001.

Separately, he is a talented bluegrass musician and a great friend. Aaron,

thank you for joining me. Thank you so much, Alexandra. It's a pleasure to be here.

You bring some really interesting qualifications to this discussion. You're a colonel in the Marines,

but also a PhD in history from Yale. You focused a lot of your attention on the effects of

U.S. military influence

internationally and the various ways that culture can affect military institutions and military

operations. That's a broad topic, but a really interesting place to start as we look at good

governance and the impact of the military. But why don't you start by

describing why you wrote the book? Even before I went to Afghanistan as a Marine, I had already

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