Welcome to Intelligent Squared. Today we continue our series of conversations focusing on the

climate crisis, looking at the complex topic of EgoSide. Here's Karl Miller with more.

As COP26 in Glasgow, Scotland comes to a close this week and with well-leaders,

finally leaving town and spectacle winding down, many may be asking some hard questions.

What was it all for? What really got done? One person at COP who's been very busy

indeed over the last couple of weeks is JoJo Metta. She's co-founder of Stop EgoSide, a group

working with legal experts and campaigners around the world, to enshrine the concept of EgoSide

crimes against the environment into international law. We're also joined by Dan Greten, writer,

activist and teacher. Dan may be familiar to you as listeners in Intelligent Squared, having

spoken to us last year about his book, IU We Then, which looks at the history of desk killers,

those whose actions be it for governments or corporations directly or indirectly cause huge

amounts of damage to our societies. Both of you very, very warm welcome to Intelligent Squared.

JoJo, if we can begin with you. Before we turn to this concept of EgoSide,

how has COP been? What are your reflections actually being up there on the amount of progress,

which is or isn't being made? There's an interesting one. I have spent relatively

little time in the blue zone, which is the sort of accredited political, negotiating zone with all

pavilions and we've had a very full program of events around EgoSide. Part of that reason

that we've had that full program that actually isn't in the blue zone is that the conversation

around EgoSide is not one of the ones that is happening in the blue zone. So what we would say

is that there's an awful lot of talk going on. I have to say that there may be a large percentage

of blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, there are some new things that are, you know,

some things that are different this time. There is a very strong indigenous presence, for example,

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