Hello and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. I just got back from the cop in Brazil last week.

We ran quite a few stories on it. If you are interested to know some more details about what happened, those are all at

drilled.media. Today we're bringing you an episode of the cop out podcast from Dana Fisher. She's a

sociologist that we've had on the show before. She's particularly an expert on activism. She's

written a ton of books on this subject, most recently saving ourselves from climate

shocks to climate action.

Dana's been doing this series all around the cop and how and why it's broken and what

can be done about it.

It's very, very good.

Check it out. We'll put a link in the show notes.

In this episode, she had myself and Dr. Catherine Hayho on to talk about climate communication

and what happened at COP and what we can take from it all. I had a great time talking to them

both and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Here it is.

Welcome to the Cop Out podcast. I'm Dana Fisher, the Director of the Center for Environment

Community and Equity at American University. This is an opportunity to have apocalyptic

optimistic climate conversations,

and there's lots to talk about today. And I am so happy and privileged to be joined by these

amazing women who do such amazing work. And I just thought we would start. I mean, so just as a wrap up here, cop is winding down.

Literally, the blue zone set on fire yesterday, perhaps a sign from, you know, from like, from this from the gods, perhaps.

And, and then today, uh, the draft text for the final text coming out of

cop was released which made no mention to fossil fuel phase out ignored completely

the 80 some countries that were actually pushing for a fossil fuel phase out so

...