What up guys, it's Lisa Beliu and if you're anything like me, and obsessed with true crime and serial killer documentaries, then oh my god, this episode is for you, I am so excited, it's absolutely jam-packed with crazy information and all the tactics so that you can start to spot manipulators and all of their sleazy grooming process before they actually get to sink their teeth into. Too many women feel helpless and powerless in situations where there may be a gnaw some warning signs and realise they fell for the wolf in sheep's clothing. We then talk about how you can actually test the empathy of someone new if you are suspicious of their intentions. And let's face it, all the crime docuaries always say that we ignore this suspicion. So that's what we're going to change today. And oh my god, that's just part one of this part two episode. Learning these tactics and help you stop the con before it starts and even potentially save your life not to be dramatic, but yes, that could be the possible outcome. So as you can see, I'm so excited to let's just dive in to this episode, I'm Lisa Bilyu, welcome to Women of Impact. When you put the four of those things together, you kind of create the perfect concoction for a con man to step in, and they leave you high and dry, broke, alone, and dejected. You may not even realize them manipulating you until it feels like it's too late. We women often ignore our gut feelings even when they're glaring at us because, well, we don't want to make a fuss, we don't want to embarrass ourselves and possibly make a false accusation. And sometimes we may ignore the creepy guy giving us that creepy look in the corner. So Andrew, help. How do we know if it actually is just our imaginations running away with us because we've watched too many episodes of True Detective? Or if they really are, master manipulators, and another dirty John, or Tinder Swindler in disguise? The place to start with what action to take is actually to understand how you yourself are wired. And there's a lot of empirical evidence out there to show the difference between the core fundamental wiring of a female versus a male, specifically in Western culture. So I'm going to reference something called the Myers-Briggs type indicator, MBTI. It's a personality test that's standard that's used all across government agencies, that's used in universities, that's used in the corporate workplace, which means introverted, censor, feeler, judgeur, almost 20% of women. One out of every five women fall into the ISFJ category. Why is that important to what you're asking? Because that category specifically means that women make gut instinct decisions. So they make decisions from their gut, but they collect data from facts. That's what the S means. The S means that you use your five senses to collect information. So you're using what you see, what you hear, what you smell to collect the information around you, but with all that factual information, you make your decisions not based on the information, but based off of your gut. And then because you're also a J, J stands for judgeur, that means that you're trying to fit your decisions into a rubric that's been defined for you by an outside force. Well, what is that outside force in Western culture? It's Western society. So what that means is women see things, hear things, smell things that aren't right. But then because they're trying to fit within a Western society, they know that if they call attention to the thing that they distrust, they might be judged as paranoid, bitchy. Who knows what, right? Silly, stupid. So then their gut instinct, their gut feeling is, maybe I'm wrong. So I'll just wait. And then they're introverted so they don't have a lot of external friends that they really trust. When you put the four of those things together, you kind of create the perfect concoction for a con man to step in and manipulate all four categories. And because one in five women fall into these categories, you can see why there's such a high prevalence of con men. All right. So help me understand, Anandru, how do we start to then break it? And how do manipulators actually identify that you're that type of person to go off during the first place? This is so this is this is where it starts to get really interesting, right? Europe, there is not a single thing wrong with being an ISFJ. Nothing wrong. There's no inherent weakness. If anything, there's an inherent strength in being ISFJ because when you take what the typical man is, the typical man is almost the exact opposite, right? EN-N-T-P is the average man, right?

And I am an E-N-T-P, my wife is an ISFJ.

I wouldn't be surprised if you and Tom are very similar. Do you mind breaking down what E-N-T-P is? E-N-T-P means extrovert, Intuitive, thinker, Perceiver, which compared to your ISFJ, their polar opposites, right?

Extroverts mean they like being around people.

Introverts mean they like being alone.

Like meaning they generate energy.

When I get tired, I want to be around people. When my wife gets tired, she wants to be alone. That's how we recharge. That's your E and your I. Intuiters collect information based off of their experience and what they think might be happening. I'm an Intuiter. So I might see something and be like, oh, I don't know if I really trust what I see. My wife is a sensor. When she sees something, she believes it. That's what the numbers say. That's what the color is. It's not going to rain because there's no clouds in the sky. I look at the sky and I'm like, it could rain soon. Just I just I think it could. So we intuit information, right? That's your end versus your S. I am a thinker. My wife is a feeler. I make decisions based off of information that I intuit. You can see how problematic that is. I'm making decisions based off of what I think might happen. My wife makes decisions based on her gut instinct. And then, of course, J and P, she tries to fit a that's been defined for her, that's's a J. I am a P. I make my own norm and to hell with everything else. So you can see how we're different, but you can also see how when you have the right mix, they complement each other almost perfectly. Because now she can be the source of real data, I can make a rational base decision off of her real data. She can always keep me true to the framework of society. I can always challenge her to question the framework of society, and etc., etc. So that's what happens when personalities complement each other. What happens a lot of times is that same complementary relationship, just like an ENTP can empower an ISFJ, or an ISFJ can empower an ENTP. In too many instances, you end up having very successful women, ISFJs, because they know how to fit into a category. They know how to do a good job in a corporation. They know how to do a good job in society. They know how to be accepted by their peers. They know how to volunteer for the church or for the school. They know how to be awesome people. And the vast majority of ESFJ women, they are awesome people. They're the people you and I look up to, right? But they're vulnerable to this ENTP type that can come in and basically be all the things that they're not. Because like all human beings were attracted to the opposite, were attracted to what we aren't. So when you see somebody come in who's super comfortable in a social setting, that's an interesting person to you. When you see someone come in who isn't paralyzed by gut instincts or constantly like struggling to make a decision, you're very interested and attracted to that person. And when you come with a person who says, like, oh, I know the society needs me to do this, but to hell with that, I'm gonna do my own thing. That's an attractive person. So what happens is con men who are wired with that ENTP type personality and have their mind intent on doing malicious things, they can weave themselves in with these successful women and manipulate those successful women almost intrinsically because they are just naturally doing the thing that that woman is attracted to seeing. And unless she is aware of what her vulnerabilities are, she's blind to how she's even being It soundsed. It sounds like a that the narcissist with the empath, which is why the narcissist is usually the grandiose, the loud, the extrovert, they're like, everyone loves them, the woman's more of the subdue. And that's where, at least from the understanding all their research I've ever done, is that when the narcissist finds that empath, that's that perfect fit because they know exactly their characteristics in order to manipulate them. Correct. And when we talk about narcissism, you have to understand that narcissism is usually constrained by ages. So 25 to 35 is when human beings are in their peak narcissists years, until we start getting to the far extreme where you actually have a personality disorder, like narcissistic personality disorder. But for most of us, 25 to 35 is our peak narcissist years. It makes sense. It's also when we're trying to be the most successful, we're trying to be competitive. So we lean into narcissistic tendencies. But when you have someone who is on the far end of that extreme and they are paired with a true empath, somebody who cares and cares about the narcissist, you're essentially feeding the narcissist exactly what they're looking for. They're looking for attention, they're looking for validation, they're looking for someone to give them authority and credibility in some aspect of life. And that's exactly what an empathic person wants to do. They want to show you that they care, that you're validated, that they hear you, that they see you. And it's a very unhealthy and dangerous pot of soup. All right. So now that you've broken it down with, that was so clear, it's really clicked into my brain now of like how those two can be beautiful together, but obviously how it can also be detrimental to us. I'd love to take the real world example of Dirty John. This is something that so many women talk about, but it's just one of millions and millions and millions of stories that it just went to the extreme. So I'd love to really break down the Dirty John story. What happened? How we as women got manipulated by him and then how it transpired into such a dangerous situation that unfortunately is only too common, I think. Yeah, so the Dirty John story and there's lots of details I'm sure we can talk about, but what catches me immediately is the age, the ages in question, right? Because Dirty John's target was a divorced woman over the age of 50.

So here you have a woman who has been successful in professional life, but is questioning her personal life. And women go through massive changes multiple times throughout their life. Men are very blessed to not have nearly as much dynamism in our life, right? But I mean, women, when they discover, when they discover their menstrual cycle and then when they are, when their body changes again in their 20s, when they start to have children, when they, when they change jobs or leave their job to raise a family, I mean, the changes for women are just constantly coming. Men don't have any experience like that. But there's also this point when women go, they crest over 40 if they have children, their children are grown. If they, I think we were talking earlier about divorce rates being highest in that age bracket, losing your job is highest in that age bracket. So there's all sorts of these changes that happen when you're in that 45 to 55 realm. And it's a space that because of all those changes, it's ripe for women to start second-guessing themselves and doubting themselves. Even though their instincts are what made them successful in the first place, they will still doubt themselves. Why? Because especially if we stick to generalizing from empirical research, ISFJ, that J means they are judging themselves. I'm 50. I should have this much money in the savings account. I'm 50. I should have this kind of marriage. I'm 50. I should have this kind of relationship with my parents or my family or my sisters or my brothers or my kids, right? I should be taking care of my parents as they age. There's all this judgment going on internally inside of a woman's head about what she expects of herself versus what's actually happening. And what the outside expects of you. Which is very, very different than how society treats men. And it's very different than how men think of themselves at the same age. So in the dirty John example, that's the woman who is then targeted by dirty John, who finds her on a dating app or a dating website, and why is he on that website? Because here's the secret truth for con men. Con men are just like salesmen. If anybody knows how sales work, you have to call a lot of people to get one sale. You have to make a lot of pitches to get one buyer. You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find one prince, right? Con men are out there doing what, when they're intentionally maliciously conning, they have to constantly be farming for leads. Where do you farm for leads? On an app, on a website, in a place where there's an automated function that helps you find multiple targets and then weed through those targets to find the most likely candidate for victory. And that's exactly what happened in this dirty John case. The target put herself out there in a vulnerable honest place because she, as an introverted, feeler, believes that people are to be honest, but dishonest people like to surround themselves white by honest people because it gives them an unfair advantage. So once he finds her, then there's a second level to Dirty John that I think is important to talk about because Dirty John had a history of criminal activity, previous fraudulent activity. He was a criminal. When you start seeing people who are compulsive criminals, you have to start asking the question about whether they fit into the realm of anti-social personality disorder. Psychopathie. How do you know that they're criminals there? Because you can even lie about that. I bet you that wasn't something he put on his dating profile. No, you're exactly right. And this is so, it's a great question. One of the things that Dirty John did specifically to his target is he started trying to insulate her from her own friends. This is a major telltale sign when you as a female are dating somebody who is a dangerous person. If they try to insulate you or pull you away, isolate you from your existing circle of friends, your existing family, your existing network, usually it's because they're trying to hide something that they don't worry about you discovering, but they worry about your best friend discovering. They worry about your mom finding out, right? So they try to pull you away from the people that you're closest to. Dirty John isolated his target from her children and her friends. Her children and her friends actually hired a private investigator to look into him, and that's how all of his background became known.

And before you move on,

is it the reason why he wasn't worried about her finding out

is because he knew he could manipulate her and control her,

even if she did, but he doesn't have that type of power

over her family?

Correct.

Correct.

There's a formula in CIA operations.

There's a formula that we use whenever we convert an asset.

There is a very specific rubric, a process to manipulate and gain power over an individual. Any type of individual, any personality type, you just have to understand the levers that make them work, right? So when one of those processes is called no-like trust, KLT, what that process means is that first, somebody has to know you exist. If they don't know you exist, then you're not real. Then they have to learn to like you. Over time, as you learn to like somebody, there's something there's an effect called the slippery slope effect. The more you learn to like somebody, you eventually just fall into trusting that person. We always say you have to earn my trust. That's not really true. If you like me for long enough, that's so true. Oh my God, you literally just hit me like with a sledgehammer just now. You will just trust me. You will fall into trust. And that's what happens for many, many feelers, ISFJ. Feelers trust their gut. So if they like you for long enough, then they just feel like they can trust you. So think about all the women out there. Maybe this has even been you. This is me. You can see my eyes are so wide-tattered. I'm like, yes, that's me. Think about all the women out there who have had a partner cheat, have how to partner steal, have had a partner lie. And then even after they catch their partner, they still stay with the partner or come back to the partner, give them a second chance, give them a third chance, give them a fifth chance. My wife, my wife is a former covert CIA intelligence officer. She is a badass. She went to CIA running away from a seven-year abusive relationship. Wow, really? Because she had fallen off the cliff of like, into trust. And then she was in this position where she was like, why do I keep coming back to the same boyfriend? And then it took an invitation from the National Clandestine Service for her to finally leave the guy. Wow. Right? Like, it's not about weakness. It is very much about personality and inherent processes and how we think. So until a feeler, or in this case, until a female who is exposed to this kind of treatment, until she starts to realize, this is how I am wired. I will always have this vulnerability. Vulnerability is not weakness. It's just an opportunity for someone else to take advantage of. So until you understand that you fall into trust, then you never have the time to stop and take a step back and say, I really like this person. I need to be careful. Right? When you start adding other warning indicators, I really like this person. And he's trying to isolate me from my friends. I really like this person. But he's telling me that we need to keep certain secrets about our relationship. If you don't ever see the first, if you don't ever realize that you're liking the

person and starting to trust them just by virtue of liking them, then you never even see the other warning signs. And they're all there with the dirty John case, which is easy for us in hindsight to look back and say, how did she miss them? But in reality, she wasn't even looking for them. She was coming from a place in her life where she didn't feel like she was worthy of anybody,

where she felt like she was a failure, where she felt like no matter how much we looked at her and said, you're awesome. She looked at herself in the mirror and said, I've done it all wrong. So how are you going to ever expect someone like that with their face down in the weeds? How are they ever going to pull their head up enough to see what's happening around them? can identify that in a person and that's how they pick their perfect target.

Just like a salesman picks their perfect lead. I interrupted you, sorry, but you said, so know them, like them, and then what was the last one? Trust. Trust them, okay. Trust. No like trust. It's hard for the very reason we talked about. Once you like somebody long enough, you will fall in the trust. And then there's a rumor out there that once you violate someone's trust, they never trust you again. It's not really true. In reality, once you trust somebody, you always give them the benefit of the doubt. So when your husband is cheating or your boyfriend is cheating, why do you forgive them? Because there's a part of you that's still giving them the benefit of the doubt. Oh, maybe it was a bad day or maybe they're with their friends or they got high or they got drunk or it won't happen again. That trust is so difficult to pull yourself out of, right? So when we talk about no light trust, no light trust is the centerpiece of a larger system called development. Development is the D in the term Sadrat, SADRAT. We use Sadrat. Sadrat, it stands for Spot Assess Develop, Recruit Handle Terminate. It's a human intelligence process to basically take someone from being a patriot for their country and turning them into a traitor that supports you. All right, you go to break that down. That's fascinating. Literally a process to change a person's loyalty. So, very briefly, spotting means that you find a group of people who are susceptible to what you're trying to do, which is convert them and convert their loyalty to you, to make them loyal to you or loyalty your country or your organization. So spotting is about finding the people that you want to convert. In the dirty John case, he was using an app to spot. Mm-hmm. Then you move to assessment. Assessment means you are probing to test certain aspects of the person. In most, the most common aspects, you want to test their reliability, their suitability, and their controllability. So what that means is, are they suitable for what you want them to do? So in dirty John's case, he's looking for someone suitable to be con. And then you want to test for reliability. Can you reliably expect them to do what you ask them to do? Give you a phone number, respond to your message, whatever else it might be. He can use the app to see how long does it take her to respond to my message. How often does she respond? Does she give me more information, or do I give her more information? That's all testing for reliability. And then controllability. Controllability is when you tell them what to do, and it may not be in their best interest. So if you can tell them, well, why don't you take Sunday off or take Friday off and meet me for lunch? If they do that, you're testing their controllability, right? So now we've gotten from spot and assess. Now we're going into developments because you know the person is suitable, is reliable and is controllable. So all you do in development is you reinforce the idea that what you have is superior to what they want, to get them to believe that they've been wrong the whole time and that they need to trust you. You've heard the term gaslighting. This is very similar to gaslighting because inside development, what you're doing is you're preparing for the final step, which is the R stands for recruit, SADR. Recruit is is when you finally tell the person your loyalty should be to me and not to this other thing that you're loyal to. So in the dirty John case, he basically made it clear to her, your loyalty is to me not your friends, not your family. I care the most about you. You should care the most about me. Your opinion matters the most to me. My opinion should matter the most to you. I'm sure that we've seen this before in other relationships, right? Once you have that recruitment in place, then the A, the A is, it's a government acronym. So the A actually stands for handle. Handle starts with the letter H, but government acronym. So they use the letter A. In the handling phase, all you're doing is you're reinforcing and constantly practicing the behaviors that you have trained into them during the developmental phase. So this is where you start seeing people who want to keep secrets. This is where you see physical and emotional abuse take place. And then the abuser basically says, you can't tell anybody, this is our business. I'm gonna get better, right? Just keep it between us. Let me work on this. Be my, you know, help me with this, whatever it might be. It's a process of reinforcing already, it's already trained behaviors that suit the manipulator and don't suit the target themselves. Until you get to the place where it's terminate, terminate is basically where the handler or the abuser says, I got what I need. I'm out. And they leave you high and dry, broke, alone, and dejected. That's the whole satrat process. That developmental process that I was telling you about in the middle where you're training those key behaviors, that is where no-like trust comes in. No-like trust is the tool that you use to get them to adopt your behaviors and how do you get them to adopt those behaviors because they like you so much that they eventually trust you. And once they trust you, they'll do whatever you tell them to do. Wow. That was such a beautiful way of actually breaking that down. And I have such incredible compassion for anyone, you know, obviously because my show's Women of Impact for Women, who get trapped in that cycle. And it is very deliberate. And I like that you said it's not weakness, right? It's like showing vulnerability to somebody in a situation where you want to be vulnerable because you want to build a relationship is beautiful and it pains me that people would then beat themselves up and then not trust themselves anymore because they've been there. They're doing the right thing. The person who is vulnerable is the person in the right. It's the abuser who's taking advantage of it. It's just like we said at the beginning of our conversation, when you have two opposites that approach in a healthy manner, you have the combination for a super couple. When you have one person with malicious intent approaching one person with vulnerable honest intent, now you have a recipe

for quite the opposite. And so, I mean, the story gets even worse if people don't actually know what happened. So the daughter is the one who's very suspicious, right? You said they went on hide a private detective or this starts coming out. I've got a criminal record and things like that. And then one day, so the mom eventually tells Dirty John, hey, I don't want to be with you anymore. So one day, the daughter, Tara Newell, I'll just read this to you, had gotten out of her car in the parking garage of her apartment building, opened the door for her dog to hop out on August 20th, 2016. When suddenly, she found herself in a fight for her life. He grabs me by the waist and he looks me in the eyes and says, do you remember me? She said he began stabbing her with a knife, and this is a quote of hers, but I am not aware that he's stabbing me because the knife is an adult taco bag. And she just thinks that he's punching her. So I think he's punching me and he keeps him trying to grab me, put his hand over my mouth. I bite as hard as I can and I just keep trying to get away from him. Tara ends up fighting back and ends up stabbing him in the eye and forehead of a total of 13 times and she ends up killing him. Wow. So I kind of like the way that story. I do.

...