Hello, I'm Dr. Stephen Hassan, and I'm so honored Joyce McGuire-Pavo that you have granted me this interview.

We know each other for 40-plus years or so, way back to when you were getting your master's from Harvard with Horit, my first wife.

And you've been my educator. I took a workshop with you. But let me just read a little bit more

and extol your accomplishments. You're amazing. So this podcast, this interview, is really about a new frame for adoption that you have pioneered being an adopte yourself.

And if I remember correctly, you even became a PI and were one of the first to search for your biological mother. Am I remembering

No, but that's okay. I apologize. Anyway, Joyce, you are a psychologist, you're a trained

social worker, licensed marriage and family therapist. You've been a lecturer of psychiatry at Harvard Medical

School. You've been a clinical member and approved supervisor of the American Association

of Marriage and Family Therapy. You've been on every board, every organization on adoption, really, in the

world, and you've been pioneering the frame that adoption should be about finding families

to fit the child versus the old system of finding a child for, you know, for a family, a parent-centered,

you're advocating a child-centered approach in your work.

And having the meta-system look about family and community being supportive to this whole process.

You have a private practice.

You still do gobs of training and lecturing and flying around the world.

You have Pavo Consulting and Coaching, a website that people can find out more.

And I read your book, The Family of Adoption, when Misha, my wife and I went to Ukraine,

what is now owned by Russia, actually, Semphoropal, in the first invasion of Ukraine back

in 2014 by Putin.

Anyway, you taught me so much about how to think about being adoptive parent.

And of course, our son is now 19.5, I might add.

And with that, beginning intro, you've been training therapists, you've been teaching

...