Chatter: Secrecy and Transparency in Early America, with Katlyn Carter

The Lawfare Podcast

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4.7 • 6.4K Ratings

🗓️ 21 December 2023

⏱️ 61 minutes

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Summary

Modern representative democracy was born in darkness. Transparency in representative bodies can spur unintended consequences for freedom, while secrecy in those bodies can lead to optimal outcomes for the public.

These are uncomfortable truths that emerge from the history of the US and French revolutionary experiences. Many of our governance challenges today, from malign misinformation to persistent leaks to skepticism toward authority, derive in part from the fact that fundamental issues about how to manage openness in a representative deomcracy remain unresolved.

David Priess chatted with Katlyn Carter, assistant professor of history at Notre Dame and author of the new book Democracy in Darkness: Secrecy and Transparency in the Age of Revolutions, about the concepts of reflective representation and insulated representation, how to understand and research the will of the people, the Continental Congress's secrecy, the closed-door policy of the Constitutional Convention, the consequences of its secrecy for the doctrine of originalism, the crucial cases of the Jay Treaty and the Alien and Sedition Acts, James Madison's evolving views about representation and openness, the difficult realization that open dialogue and debate do not always lead to truth, and Thomas Jefferson's complicated legacy.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Transcript

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0:00.0	The following podcast contains advertising.
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0:08.0	become a material supporter of Lawfair at Patreon.com slash Lawfair. That's Patreon.com
0:16.4	slash Lawfair. Also check out Lawfair's other podcast offerings, rational security, chatter, lawfare no bull, and the aftermath.
0:30.0	Attention to all passengers. You can now book your train tickets on Uber and get 10% back in
0:40.3	Uber credits to spend on your next train journey.
0:43.6	So no excuses not to visit your in-laws this Christmas.
0:48.6	Trains now on Uber.
0:50.4	T's and C's apply.
0:51.3	Check the Uber app. Welcome to Chatter. I'm David Priest. This week, historian and author Caitlin Marie Carter on secrecy and transparency in early America.
1:10.0	You have
1:15.0	in 1787 55 delegates who make their way to Philadelphia.
1:16.0	Pretty much as soon as they all get there, they shut the doors,
1:19.0	they have guards outside, they close the windows.
1:21.0	They're committed to keeping a tight rap on what they're
1:25.2	discussing in the room. You immediately have critics who start to say,
1:31.8	wait a minute, this really can't be considered a document in the name of the people.
1:38.0	If it was formulated entirely behind closed doors, the people had no chance to offer their input on it.
1:45.4	They had no chance to understand how it was formulated.
1:51.3	You know, Madison, he had written later in his life that he thought without secrecy there never would have been a constitution reached.
2:05.0	Caitlin welcome to Chatter. Thanks so much for having me.
2:07.0	I am going to do something that is abnormal for our podcasts here, which is I'm going to jump right to the bottom line.
	...

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