Hello and welcome. My name is Sophia Besh and you're listening to the CER podcast.

Hello and welcome to the third episode of the CER podcast series on the economics of populism. My name's John Springford. I'm Director of Research at the Centre for

European Reform. And today I'm in conversation with Agnes Bensi Kere and Martin Helwig. Anas is

a professor at the Paris School of Economics and she's chairperson of the French Council of Economic

Analysis. And Martin is director of the French Council of Economic Analysis.

And Martin is director of the Max Planck Institute for Research on Collective Goods and a professor of economics at the University of Bonn.

So an incredibly difficult conversation, which we've just had a session which lasted about an hour and a half discussing.

The question is, has trade liberalisation and financial globalization gone too far?

I'd like each of you to try and answer that question in 60 seconds, if you possibly can.

Martin, do you want to go first?

Well, as I mentioned in this session, the question is really, what's the normative standard

that's implicitly assumed?

What's the objective? What are the constraints?

If we think about the objective as simply being efficiency, the answer is it can never go too far, but then we're just the elitist

intellectuals who are part of the overall problem. We need to see first that efficiency

is not the same as welfare, that distribution matters. We need to see second that

if you go too

far in one direction,

the strategies may

become politically unviable.

And we also need to see that the people

who make them unviable

...