I think that Lewis himself, he knows, I'm backing you into a corner and I'm walling off all of your escape routes.

And I'm going to get you back into the corner and then I'm going to stop and I'm going to leave you an escape route.

You can just reject God out of hand. You can just be unfaithful. But you're going to do it honestly.

You're either going to say, no, God, I don't want it, and I'm doing it my way. I'm choosing myself over you, or you can submit, you can humble yourself, you can

relent. If we do relinquish our self-will, we find we enter into joy. Welcome to the Crossway

podcast, a show where we sit down with authors each week for thoughtful interviews about the

Bible, theology,

church history, and the Christian life. I'm Matt Tully, and today I'm talking with Joe Rigney.

Joe serves as assistant professor of theology and literature at Bethlehem College and Seminary.

He's also a pastor at City's Church and the author of a number of books including Lewis on the

Christian Life, becoming truly human in the presence of God with Crossway.

Today, Joe and I discuss the legacy of one of the most beloved Christian thinkers and writers

of all time, C.S. Lewis. We talk about how Lewis managed to so brilliantly capture the complexities of the human heart

and so many of his writings, what he thought about the Lord of the Rings, written by his good friend J.R.R. Tolkien.

And what he might say to the American church if he were alive today.

Let's get started.

Joe, thank you so much for joining us on the Crossway podcast today. Yeah, it's great to be here.

So I want to start with what might be an odd question. But of all the books that have come out

over the last couple years, which one do you think C.S. Lewis would have been most interested

and maybe even excited about if you were alive today? Yeah, that's interesting question to think about which

books. You know, he, uh, he, he, he read so much when you, when you read his letters to, like,

his brother and to Arthur Greaves and some of his other, other friends, like all of the,

...