One of my professors at seminary had a daughter who, well into middle age, lived as an unbeliever.

Frankly, she said she was an unbeliever, though she had professed Fythe in her childhood.

And virtually, as he was dying, the Holy Spirit touched her heart, and the Lord brought her to himself.

So there's no point where you give up. So there's no point where you give up.

There's just no point where you give up. We don't know. Welcome to the Crossway podcast, a show where we sit

down with authors each week for thoughtful interviews about the Bible, theology, church history,

and the Christian life. I'm Matt Tully, and today I'm talking with Dennis Johnson. Dennis is Professor

Emeritus of Practical Theology at Westminster Seminary, California. After teaching New Testament for

16 years, he taught primarily preaching and ministry courses and taught in various countries in Africa,

Asia, Europe, and Latin America. Finally, he's the author of a commentary on the book of Hebrews in

Crossways' ESV expository commentary series. Today, Dennis and I discuss Hebrews 6 verses 4 to 6,

one of the New Testament's most famous and debated warning passages, a section of scripture

that many people think teaches that Christians can lose their salvation.

He explains why he doesn't think that's what the author of Hebrews was saying, and whether or not

we can be certain about our own salvation. Let's get started. Well, Dennis, thank you so much for

joining us today on the Crossway podcast. Well, thank you for inviting me.

So at some point in life, I think most of us will know someone, maybe a friend or a family member

or even a spiritual mentor who will turn away from what once seemed like a vibrant faith

and maybe even going so far as to

leave their church or leave their family or maybe even renounce Christ altogether.

And obviously this can be very destabilizing and confusing for those who are kind of left

wondering what happened, what were the things that led to this and what should we make

...