BTC243: Jim Chanos Vs Pierre Rochard MSTR mNAV debate (Bitcoin Podcast)

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network

Stig Brodersen

Education, Investing, Business

4.6 • 3.6K Ratings

🗓️ 16 July 2025

⏱️ 55 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Jim Chanos and Pierre Rochard face off on Bitcoin-native corporates, debating governance, valuation models, capital structure, and whether BTC on the balance sheet adds value or risk. IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN: 00:00 - Intro 02:27 - Why Jim Chanos is short BTC companies but long Bitcoin itself 05:44 - Pierre Rochard's view on using corporate debt/equity to acquire BTC 13:03 - Capital structure tools best suited for BTC-native companies 14:12 - Whether BTC treasuries offer more than just bull-market beta 19:23 - The risks of NAV premiums and misaligned management incentives 20:16 - Debate over proper valuation frameworks: NAV vs. cash flow 24:30 - Could BTC treasuries evolve into financial infrastructure—or stay niche? 26:25 - The systemic implications of too many firms holding BTC on balance sheets 36:22 - 2030 predictions: spot BTC vs. BTC-native equities vs. ETFs 40:17 - What a “responsible” BTC treasury strategy could look like Disclaimer: Slight discrepancies in the timestamps may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Jim’s X Account. Pierre’s X Account. Related Episode: Bitcoin Energy Survey and the Speculative Attack w/ Pierre Rochard. Check out all the books mentioned and discussed in our podcast episodes⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Enjoy ad-free episodes when you subscribe to our⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Premium Feed⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. NEW TO THE SHOW? Join the exclusive ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TIP Mastermind Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Stig, Clay, Kyle, and the other community members. Follow our official social media accounts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Check out our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bitcoin Fundamentals Starter Packs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Try our tool for picking stock winners and managing our portfolios: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TIP Finance Tool⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Enjoy exclusive perks from our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠favorite Apps and Services⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get smarter about valuing businesses in just a few minutes each week through our newsletter, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Intrinsic Value Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn how to better start, manage, and grow your business with the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠best business podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sponsors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: SimpleMining Hardblock AnchorWatch Onramp Human Rights Foundation Unchained Intuit Vanta reMarkable Shopify Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm

Transcript

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0:00.0	You're listening to TIP.
0:02.7	Hey, everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast.
0:07.0	On today's show, we have two very special guests to have a little debate about Bitcoin
0:11.6	treasury companies and the premiums they should potentially fetch in the market.
0:15.6	On the one side of the debate, we have legendary shortseller, Mr. Jim Chanos.
0:22.4	He's a Wall Street veteran with legendary calls like shorting Enron, amongst many others. And then on the other corner,
0:27.9	we have Mr. Pierre Rochard, who's a longtime Bitcoin OG and financial expert defending the
0:33.3	premium that should be paid for these treasury companies. Pierre and his friend Michael Goldstein
0:37.8	were the originators of the paper on Bitcoin's speculative attack on the dollar, which many
0:42.5	people in the Bitcoin space here all the time, but might not know Pierre was the first
0:46.7	person to write about it. So if you're in finance, you're probably going to love this conversation.
0:52.0	If you're more of a casual observer, the financial jargon
0:55.0	might be a little heavy at times, but I really try my hardest to make it accessible for
0:59.3	all the listeners and wrap up and provide descriptions along the way. One last thing,
1:04.1	I just want to say. I love the power of the internet and online social media. Don't laugh too
1:09.7	hard, but this whole conversation happened
1:11.7	because one person on X who goes by the name Space Bowl Hoddle 58K, 13%er, 80 IQ hoarding man-made
1:21.3	numbers, yes, that's his entire handle online, is the reason this whole conversation happened in the first place
1:29.0	because of the friendly banter that was happening.
1:31.9	So, guys, you can't make this stuff up anymore.
1:34.1	What a fun place to operate.
1:36.1	That's all I got.
	...

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