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American Prestige

Bonus - Star Wars, Empire, and the Politics of The Phantom Menace w/ Daniel Immerwahr (Preview)

American Prestige

Daniel Bessner & Derek Davison

News, History, Politics

4.81.2K Ratings

🗓️ 12 April 2026

⏱️ 10 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Subscribe now for the full episode! Danny welcomes back to the show historian Daniel Immerwahr to talk about the political and ideological themes of Star Wars, particularly The Phantom Menace. They discuss George Lucas’s Vietnam War influences and anti-imperial framework; myth and generational conflict in the original trilogy; the rise of intellectual property and Silicon Valley ideology; the shift from rebellion to bureaucracy in The Phantom Menace; its depiction of trade, governance, and liberal institutional decay; the racialized and cultural representations in the prequels; the transformation of the Jedi into enforcers; technology and scientism; and how The Phantom Menace reflects the politics of the late 1990s “end of history” moment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

You're listening to American Prestige.

0:03.2

To listen ad-free, you can subscribe at AmericanPestigepod.com.

0:08.3

Find the link in our show notes.

0:11.3

Called Apocalypse Now, and he's working on it for years, and it's, you know, it's going to be this, like, big anti-war, Vietnam War film, and you just can't get it made.

0:20.5

And so, but he's can't get it made.

0:24.1

And so, but he's, he's worked it out, like they've scattered locations.

0:30.5

So he gets to a point where he hands it off to his friend, Francis Ford Coppola,

0:34.3

who makes the movie that we now know, Lucas's version would have been different.

0:40.5

But the reason that he feels comfortable doing that is that he decides, he's like, you know what,

0:46.8

all of the ideas I have for Apocalypse now, my Vietnam War film, that can just go into Star Wars.

0:53.6

Like that can just change the outfits a little bit because essentially this is a movie about the Viet Cong fighting the imperialists and

0:57.0

okay make them Ewoks rather than Viet Cong but like basically it's the same plot

1:01.3

so what's kind of remarkable about that is you're like oh right like I kind of vaguely sense

1:06.9

that but this underdog versus you know big empire big empire plotline, for him, that's about

1:13.5

U.S. foreign relations. It's a feel-good movie about like the U.S. losing to Vietnam War.

1:20.6

So what are Lucas's politics? Because I think when you look back on him,

1:27.9

that's not something that comes necessarily to the fore.

1:31.4

I would say that's also true for a lot of the new Hollywood,

1:33.8

which is ironic because these are people who are trained in the 60s,

1:37.5

who are profoundly connected.

1:40.0

I mean, famously, what distinguishes them is that they're film school students.

1:45.1

They're really the first generation who goes through the post-war.

...

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