So there's always language of, we're on a journey, we're learning, but it was always, always,

always met with the same tears, the same weight, the same, this is so hard for us, we're trying

to understand, but they were trying to understand at 17, the same thing, they were saying they were

trying to understand when I was 32. And there was no change. And it took a long time to realize

that people can use the language of, I'm on a journey, I'm trying, I'm learning, you have to give

me a chance to indefinitely postpone any real work. Hello and welcome to Bises happening with me,

your host Chris Hayes. One of the things that I love most about this podcast is that in these times

we find ourselves losing our attention span, I mean, maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but it's

just unbelievable how much the internet has destroyed our brains, our phones have destroyed our

brains. There's a discipline that happens with this show that I have to read books all the time

for the show. And it forces me to read books, which are great, books are great. And it's been a real

delight to do that. And one of the things that I have enjoyed about it, and this particularly

pertains to today's guest, is that like great writing has an ability to transport you and

make you experience things or feel like you can name or see an experience that you don't have in

your normal subjective life. This is true of incredible fiction and also great nonfiction.

It allows you to kind of transcend outpast yourself in a way that like tweets don't and like

all of the various kinds of flotsam and jetsome of internet content that crosses our eyes every day

doesn't because there's a certain kind of like care and depth to great writing, to great pros,

to great essays that allows you to see the world in a new way and particularly to see people's

experiences in a new way. And that's true of the book today and the author today. The book that I

just read in preparation for this conversation is called something that may shock and discredit you

by Daniel and Lavery. And in the notes, the production notes from our great editor,

...