This week's conversation is with Henry Shookman, who's an authorised Zen Master and spiritual director of the Mountain Cloud Zen Center in Santa Fe in New Mexico.

Now, over the years, Henry's taught meditation at organizations, including Google, Harvard Business School and the Esselent Institute, and he is also the co-founder of the Way meditation app,

which offers a unique pathway of training designed to help people deepen their practice

and even go all the way to experiencing an awakening. Henry is also an award-winning poet and the

author of several fantastic books, including his latest called Original Love,

The Four Inns on the Path of Awakening, which explores meditation as a path to compassion,

healing and presence. Now, in this episode, we talk about Ken Show, which is that direct seeing

through the illusion of separation. As I've talked about before, I experienced this on a retreat early this year

and I've talked about it in depth

on my YouTube channel

and in earlier episodes,

just for some context.

And just to say,

I've teamed up with Henry

and you can claim 30 free sessions

on his meditation app

via the link in the show notes.

Music free sessions on his meditation app via the link in the show notes. One thing to emphasize, and I think you've been emphasizing it really nicely and very clearly

is there's a world of difference between sort of thinking we understand this stuff and actually

experiencing it so we could talk about non-duality we could talk about no self and it's

almost totally irrelevant until we experience it.

Until we experience it, we don't realize how much all of my experience has been filtered by my sense of self,

...