From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true, and the beautiful are taught, nurtured, and honored, this is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners

across the country. What many court of humor, and many others forget, is we talk about the

principal that are in front of the court, but we forget there's real people that bring these

cases. And Justice Thomas never loses sight of the real people in front of the court.

This is your host, Scott Bertram, and that's Judge Amul Thapar. His new book, The People's

Justice, Clarence Thomas, and the constitutional stories that define him. We'll hear some of those

stories a little bit later on in today's program with Judge Thapar.

First, we're joined by Dr. Gary Wolfram. He is William Simon Professor of Economics and Public

Policy, Director of Economics, and Professor of Political Economy at Hillsdale College. Dr. Wolfram,

thanks so much for joining us. Well, thank you for having me again. Talking about a piece

you recently over at the Washington Examiner,

cuts to discretionary spending won't solve America's debt crisis.

And your piece was written before the agreement between Democrats and Republicans

about the debt limit suspension.

What's the real debt number we're talking about here? You referenced in the

piece, there's intergovernmental holdings of treasury debt. Should we be as concerned about

that as other kinds of debt? What are the real numbers we're talking about here?

Well, there's overall debt, and that includes both the debt that's out there that bonds that we have to pay back.

But the total debt includes intergovernmental holdings.

That is, so Social Security Trust Fund has what they call, they have basically bonds that is just one government agency, the Treasury,

owing another government agency.

So the actual debt that's got to be paid off, like when the bonds come due, is in the debt

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