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The Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Coleman.

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Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Coleman. My guest today is Rafael Mangual.

Raphael is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute and head of research at their policing and public safety initiative.

His new book is called Criminal Injustice, What the Push for Decarceration and De-Policing gets wrong and Who It Harts Most.

Raphael and I discussed the nationwide push for defunding and depolicing starting in the

summer of 2020. We talk about the so-called root causes of crime. We talk about Ava DuVernay's

documentary The 13th and Michelle Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow. We talk about the causes

of mass incarceration. We talk about cash bail and bail reform.

We talk about legalizing weed and much more. So without further ado, Rafael Mangual.

Okay, Ralph Mangual. Thanks so much for coming on my show.

Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be on me.

Yeah, so before we get into the book, I just want to frame the conversation a bit.

Two years ago, at this time, in the summer 2020, we were in the midst of protests, riots in every major city.

And all of it was connected to very strong calls to defund the police, to demilitarize the police,

to abolish and dismantle police forces, abolish prisons, get rid of qualified immunity.

And people like you and me, and I was at Manhattan Institute at the time where you are now, people like you and me were saying, okay, hold the phone. These proposed solutions are actually bad and are likely to hurt poor people, black people, Hispanic people,

...