AI Copyright & Training Data w/ Chris Paniewski | Wilson Sonsini Startup Legal Basics

This Week in Startups

Jason Calacanis

Technology

4.4 • 1.3K Ratings

🗓️ 11 September 2025

⏱️ 18 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Jason sits down with Wilson Sonsini partner Chris Paniewski for a special Startup Legal Basics on one of the thorniest questions in tech right now: how copyright law applies to AI training data.

Chris has worked on some of the biggest AI deals ever — including Scale AI’s $14B+ partnership with Meta and OpenAI’s $6.5B acquisition of Jony Ive’s design studio — and brings practical, on-the-ground insights from advising leading AI companies.

In this episode, Jason and Chris cover:

Why AI copyright law is unsettled and will take years to shake out
The difference between training data and output in legal terms
How “fair use” really works (and why it’s a defense, not a permission slip)
The risks of scraping vs. licensing, and why open source ≠ free use
How investors are diligencing AI startups around training data
Why startups must think differently once they’re funded vs. hacking in a dorm room

Whether you’re building an AI product, investing in one, or just trying to understand where the law is headed, this conversation breaks down the real legal risks every founder should know.

Timestamps:

(0:00) Jason introduces the Startup Legal Basics series & Chris Paniewski

(1:25) Why AI copyright law is unsettled

(3:40) Training data: scraping vs. licensing

(6:05) Open web ≠ open license; pitfalls around terms of service

(8:15) Investor diligence & risks around training data

(11:00) Open source & Creative Commons: common founder mistakes

(13:25) “Fair use” explained: the four-part test

(15:45) Why most disputes never make it to case law

Check Out Wilson Sonsini: https://www.wsgr.com

Check out all of the Startup Basics episodes here: https://thisweekinstartups.com/basics

Follow Chris:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-paniewski-09331a59/

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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis

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Transcript

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0:00.0	All right, everybody, welcome back to this week in startups.
0:06.8	This is our Startups Basic series.
0:09.1	I created this series out of self-interest and to help founders.
0:13.7	The self-interest was, I get asked the same questions over and over and over and over and
0:17.7	over again.
0:18.8	And then founders have sometimes the same question.
0:22.6	So I thought, hmm, who can I partner with to just get all these legal issues that come up over and over again?
0:28.7	Well, my attorneys, that Wilson Sonsini, are the best in the business.
0:32.8	We all know that.
0:33.8	So we do the startup series with them, the startup basic series with them.
0:37.2	You can visit it at
0:38.0	this week in startups.com slash basics. Now, normally I have Becky de Graf. She's amazing. She's
0:46.0	helped me on many fun and some gnarly adventures in legal land and startups. But today,
0:51.2	she introduced me one of her colleagues. His name is Chris
0:54.9	Pinevsky, and he's a partner at Wilson Sassini, who specializes in, yes, investments, M&A
1:02.9	for technology companies. But, Chris, you've been working with some of the biggest companies
1:06.9	in the AI space. And we're going to talk about AI today since you're on the front lines.
1:11.8	Yeah?
1:12.0	Absolutely. Yeah, I'm thrilled to be here.
1:13.8	And so I know you worked with Scale AI.
1:16.6	They joined forces with Meta.
1:19.1	Johnny Ive, of course, who created the iPhone along with Steve Jobs.
	...

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