Hey there beautiful people welcome to Fan Tide the podcast for all those complex and

complacato conversations about the gray areas in our lives. I'm Trevel Anderson and I am Jarrett Hill coming up on the show today

We're getting right into our conversation around something that we often discuss but have to really get into the nuances of with prison abolition.

But we're querying up our episode structure this week, diving right into the fan tie with our guests and a little later on in the show.

We'll have an extended combo with our reigning

fancy MVP. She is the moment. She is mischarge ourselves. She'll be here for

our listener feedback segment. We'll be able to chat with her about her

appearances on the show as we wind down.

Now, on this show, we've said many times,

and I'm sure many of you say how someone should

be thrown in jail, under the jail, at the wall,

whatever it is, often afterward needing to maybe put an asterisk

that we don't necessarily believe in the value

of the prison system.

But it's all we have, so throw Donald Trump into the depths of it.

There's a complex and complacato nest around the concept of police and prison abolition,

defunding this and burning that down.

So we wanted to get into it with one of our faves around these parts.

He is the director of the campus abolition research lab

at University of Michigan, where he's also an assistant professor

in the center for the study of higher and post-secondary education.

His current research and teaching broadly focused on issues of race and racism, systems of oppression,

...