This is In Conversation from Apple News. I'm Shemitabasu. Today, the points guys secrets to easier, cheaper travel.

When Brian Kelly was young, his dad had to travel a lot for work.

This was in the 90s.

Booking travel online was a pretty new thing.

But from an early age, Brian had a knack for it.

That was one of my first jobs.

He would pay me to book his flights.

And he came to me one day and said, well, if you can figure out how to use these frequent flyer miles, we can go on a trip.

So when I was 12, I planned our first family trip, using all points for free to the Caribbean.

It became a yearly tradition.

Fast forward to after college, Brian got an HR job at Morgan Stanley that involved a lot of travel,

and he would use his points and miles to book first-class tickets all over the world.

He started helping friends and coworkers do the same. In 2010, he launched his website,

The Points Guy, as a side hustle, offering tips and advice on ways to take full advantage of credit card points and airline miles. Today, that little side hustle has grown into a multimillion-dollar

business, used by tens of millions of people. Point Sky readers have used his advice to take trips

worth tens of thousands of dollars, to places like Sydney, Hong Kong, Dubai, Munich,

all using points and miles.

You don't need to get into credit card debt.

You don't need to be a business traveler.

Nowadays, this is really a personal finance game and leveraging all of the lucrative tools out there, credit cards being one of them, to live a better life.

Brian is quick to say he's not a financial advisor.

He just wants people to understand what's possible when you're really tuned in to all the reward systems.

...