Hello and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt.

Today we are bringing you another interview in our ongoing series, Drilling Deep, in which we interview the authors of various books coming out on climate, the energy transition, the economy and

politics surrounding those things, and all of the above. Usually, these interviews are being

done by Adam Lowenstein, who is written all the books and talking to all authors for us.

And that is true of this episode as well. This time, Adam spoke with Jean-Baptiste

Friesot, who's the author of more and more and more and all-consuming history of energy. This book is

great. It looks at how green innovation and decarbonization are not necessarily the same thing. In fact, Frazo points out that

it is perfectly reasonable and more importantly accurate to assume that the consumption of oil, gas,

coal, and even wood will continue to increase right alongside clean energy.

I've written about this a bunch.

Lots of other people have as well.

If we only tackle the energy source and we don't tackle our behavior or our attitudes

towards consumption, then yeah, we're going to end up using too many critical

earth minerals or creating a bunch of environmental problems, getting lithium, or building a

bunch of electric SUVs that nobody needs.

Frizo shows this is the real story of humanity's development

and consumption of energy. We keep using more and more and more of all kinds of it. And while

the popular narrative is one of substitution, oil replacing coal, for example. The reality is symbiosis.

New energy sources do not supplant their predecessors, but rather supplement them.

If that sounds like a radical argument, it's only because the notion of energy transition

has become so deeply entrenched.

In a conversation recorded in September,

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