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The Gray Area with Sean Illing

A former prosecutor's case for prison abolition

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, Society & Culture, News Commentary, Philosophy

4.511.1K Ratings

🗓️ 8 June 2020

⏱️ 66 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

In 2017, Paul Butler published the book Chokehold: Policing Black Men. For Butler the chokehold is much more than a barbaric police tactic; it is also a powerful powerful metaphor for understanding how racial oppression functions in the US criminal justice system.  Butler describes a chokehold as “a process of coercing submission that is self-reinforcing. A chokehold justifies additional pressure on the body because a body does not come into compliance, but a body cannot come into compliance because of the vice grip that is on it.” That, he says, is the black experience in the United States.  Butler knows that experience all too well. He began his legal career as a criminal prosecutor, a job that he describes in this conversation as “basically just locking up black men.” Then, the tables turned and Butler found himself falsely accused of a misdemeanor assault. "After that experience I didn’t want to be a prosecutor any more," he writes. "I don’t think every cop lies in court but I know for sure that one did."  That experience put Butler on a journey very different than the one he began. Butler, now a Georgetown Law professor, has come to believe that the criminal justice system is not merely broken and in need of repair; rather, it is working exactly as it was designed, and thus needs to be completely reimagined. Book recommendations: Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison Sula by Toni Morrison Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.com Please consider making a contribution to Vox to support this show: bit.ly/givepodcasts Your support will help us keep having ambitious conversations about big ideas. New to the show? Want to check out Ezra’s favorite episodes? Check out the Ezra Klein Show beginner’s guide (http://bit.ly/EKSbeginhere) Credits: Editor - Jackson Bierfeldt Researcher - Roge Karma Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

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Then when the woman with a gun and the badge and the power to arrest enters,

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0:42.3

What I'd like us to imagine is a range of responses that kind of fit the problem.

0:50.3

A health provider, a counselor, an elder.

1:00.0

Hello and welcome to the Ezra Klein Show on the Vox Media Podcast Network.

1:10.8

In 2017, Paul Butler published the book Chokehold.

1:14.2

A chokehold is he defines it is, quote,

1:16.9

a process of coursing submission that is self reinforcing.

1:20.7

A chokehold justifies additional pressure on the body,

1:23.8

because the body does not come into compliance.

1:26.5

But the body cannot come into compliance because of the vice grip that is on it.

...

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