We have to sort of jettison any sentimentality about, as it were, the old public sector

and think much more deeply about what we want the state to look like.

Thank you. Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us, a podcast that thinks there must be a better way to organize the development of technology than how it currently works. I'm your host, Paris Marx,

and today I'm speaking with Dan Hind.

Dan is the author of The Return of the Public, Democracy, Power, and the case for Media Reform.

It was published by Verso Books.

He also wrote a report last year called the British Digital Cooperative for Next System and Commonwealth.

That's mainly what we'll be talking about today.

I think you're really going to like this conversation where Dan presents his ideas for how we can change the way that

technology is developed and how we organize our broader society in a way that gives people more power

and that encourages the formation of cooperatives. If you like our chat, feel free to give the

podcast a five-star review on Apple Podcasts that really helps us out, and make sure to share it

with anyone who you think would enjoy our conversation. Finally, if you want to support the work

that I put into making this podcast, you can join supporters like Kenneth Marks and Norma

Aleward by going to patreon.com slash Paris Marks and making a contribution. Thanks so much and enjoy the

conversation. Dan Hind, welcome to Tech Won't Save Us. Well, thank you very much for having me.

It's fantastic to talk to you today. I wanted to have you on because you wrote this report last

year for Next System and Commonwealth called the British Digital Cooperative. fantastic to talk to you today. I wanted to have you on because you wrote this report last year

for Next System and Commonwealth called the British Digital Cooperative, where you kind of laid

out this idea for what the future of media and the future of technological production could

look like in a way that is democratically organized. So just to start off, could you briefly

explain what the British Digital Cooperative is and what kind of problems that you see it responding to with the way things exist today?

...