Hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today we're really excited to share a conversation with historian John Turner about his brand new biography that's just been published, Joseph Smith, the rise and fall of an American prophet.

John is a professor of religious studies and history at George Mason University. And while not a member of the Latter-day St Saint Faith, he's had a particular fascination with

the early history of Mormonism, and he wrote an earlier biography of Brigham Young.

While some of the interpretations and conclusions John draws from his book may differ from our own,

we found this new biography on Joseph to be meticulously researched and engagingly written.

In this book, John doesn't aim to settle all debates between

Joseph Smith's supporters and his detractors, but with more primary sources available than ever

before, he hoped to provide a fuller picture of a figure who continues to shape who we are today.

John says that while the question of whether God actually spoke to Joseph Smith is a matter of faith,

there is no question

about his prophetic self-conception. We assume that most listeners are familiar with the general

contours of Joseph's life. So in this conversation, we talked with John about some topics that we felt

needed more exploration, his family's early life and hardships, how they might have shaped his

resilience as a spiritual

leader, and what the historical record tells us about the gold plates and Joseph's visions,

and whether Joseph truly instigated and lived plural marriage. What struck us most was John's

portrayal of Joseph's constant evolution, his willingness to revise, to explore, and to ask

better questions. It made us wonder if

Joseph's boldness and openness to change could serve his inspiration to us in today's church.

We know that talking openly about Joseph, his humanity and complexity, even his mistakes, can be

challenging. But we hope that this episode creates more space for recognizing the humanity of our

leaders, both past and present. We're really excited to share this episode with you. And with that,

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