Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're

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Today I am speaking with David Brooks. David is one of the nation's leading writers and commentators.

He's an op-ed columnist for the New York Times, and he appears regularly on PBS's

NewsHour and Meet the Press. He's the best-selling author of several books, The Social Animal,

Bobo's in Paradise, and most recently in the book Under Discussion, The Road to Character.

In this episode we talk about that book, The Road to Character, and it was a very interesting book

where David goes into the difference between self-gratification and self-overcoming on some basic level.

So we talk about things like sin and self-esteem versus self-overcoming and the significance of

keeping promises and the ethics of honesty and related matters. And inevitably we get to Trump.

There was no way I could let David Brooks escape without telling me something about his view

of the current political landscape, but that does not dominate the podcast for those of you who

are sick to death at the topic. Our time was somewhat short. It's interesting that an hour on this

podcast feels quite short, but David had another interview to get to, so enjoy it while it lasts.

And now I give you David Brooks.

I'm here with David Brooks. David, thanks for coming on the podcast.

It's great pleasure.

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