Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're

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Today I'm speaking with Mark Bowden. Mark is the author of 13 books, including the number one

New York Times bestseller, Black Hawk Down. He reported at the Philadelphia Inquirer for 20 years,

and now writes for the Atlantic and Vanity Fair, primarily. He's also a writer and residence

at the University of Delaware. And his most recent book is Hway, 1968, a turning point for the

American War and Vietnam. And as you'll hear Mark and I get very deep into the topic of North

Korea, he wrote this wonderful article, though a fairly harrowing one, about just how difficult

and dangerous and intractable our stalemate with North Korea is. This came out in the Atlantic

a few weeks ago. It might still be in the current issue of the magazine. But in this podcast,

we essentially walk through the logic of that article. And you'll know more about why we haven't

solved the North Korea crisis, though it's been a crisis for decades. And now I bring you Mark Bowden.

I am here with Mark Bowden. Mark, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Well, thanks for inviting me, Sam.

Well, I've been a fan of yours for a long time. I think I mostly see you in the Atlantic. Do

you publish regularly somewhere else as a journalist? Most claim the Atlantic. I do occasionally write

for Vanity Fair and also for Sports Illustrated now. And then I have missed you in Sports Illustrated.

...