I'm not pulling out of the driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for the drive to work.

Coronavirus edition. Okay, I've been using my time at home to do interviews with co-workers and past co-workers to talk about making magic.

Today I have Mark Hagen and we're going to talk about Secret Lair.

Hey Mark.

Hey Mark, how you doing?

I'm doing very good.

So this is something, most of the time when I talk to people, it's something that you, yeah,

the two of us have worked a lot on.

I've done a little bit of work on Secret Lair, but not a lot.

But this is your baby.

So I brought you in so we can talk about the origins of secret layer and sort of what secret layer,

like sort of the philosophy that's evolved on secret layer.

So let's go back to the very beginning before there was a secret layer.

Where did the idea come for the first place?

How did we ever come up with this idea?

Yeah.

All right.

So I joined Wizards in 2016. I moved out here,

started learning how the machine worked. And after about a year of just kind of like orienting myself

and getting anal on things, we started running into this pattern where there were a lot of good ideas or interesting

cards people wanted to make.

Some of the cards, some of the ideas were mine or other people, people from creative,

...