Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're

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Today in the podcast, I'm bringing you a conversation with Sarah Hader,

who is the co-founder of the ex-Muslims of North America. Many of you know Sarah from Twitter.

There have been many requests to get her on the podcast. Very happy to finally have her on,

but we spoke after the Manchester bombing, but as it turns out just before the London atrocity.

And I suppose nothing really changes with each new event, but it is a very strange feeling to

more or less expect some new eruption of jihadist insanity sometime soon. So it's just to say it's

impossible to keep up with what's happening. But unfortunately I fear this conversation will seem

timely for the rest of our lives. Sarah and I talk about what it means to leave Islam,

about the unique issues that surround being an ex-Muslim, as opposed to being an ex-Christian or an

ex-Mormon, or even an ex-scientologist. And Sarah shares this experience that very few people

spend a lot of time thinking about, which is the experience of being in a post-ate, living in

what would otherwise be the safest places on earth in the safest period human beings have ever

enjoyed, but nevertheless being imperiled by the sectarian hatreds of one community.

There's a lot of talk about Islamophobia in the news. There's very little talk about the danger

and difficulty of being an ex-Muslim in the West. That's why Sarah's organization and her voice

...