You're listening to gender, a wider lens.

I'm Stella O'Malley, a psychotherapist in Ireland.

And I'm Sasha Ayad, an adolescent therapist in the United States.

Since 2016, my practice has been exclusively dedicated to gender questioning teens

and families impacted by gender dysphoria.

I also work with gender questioning teenagers and I facilitated support meetings for families and

individuals who have been impacted by gender issues. We're curious about the

concept of gender and how it's unfolding in the wider culture. Join us as we look at gender through a wider lens.

Joe Burgo is a clinical psychologist and psycho analyst who has been in practice for almost 40 years. He also writes books for a popular

audience mostly focused on shame and narcissism. In this episode, Joey explains how a sense of

shame can be the root cause of gender dysphoria and how

gender transition can become idealized as a cure for all kinds of different shame.

Gay shame, outsider shame, survivor of sexual abuse shame, feeling weird or different

shame, and so on.

The impact of the medical model on society is also lifted up as Joe describes how his depth approach to

psychological pain is often dismissed in a world seeking solutions for every

problem and a pill for every ill. We think you'll really enjoy this conversation with Joe Burgo.

Hi Sasha, hi Stella, how's it going today?

Good, it's a lovely summer day here in Ireland. Yes, and it's a very hot day here in Arizona. It's been in the

hundreds already so it's warm. We have a wonderful guest today. We are speaking

with Joe Burgo, who is a member of the Gender Exploratory Therapy Association

and a clinical psychologist and psychoanalysts. So Joe, welcome to the program. We're

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