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Gender: A Wider Lens

6 - Gender Intervention: Treatment or Experiments?

Gender: A Wider Lens

Sasha Ayad and Stella O'Malley

Health & Fitness, Society & Culture, Mental Health

4.6961 Ratings

🗓️ 15 January 2021

⏱️ 62 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Quick Notes

A whistle-stop tour through the history of psychological and medical approaches to sex and gender in the 20th century. This episode gives background and context to the formation of WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) and today’s “affirmative model of care” for gender issues.

Extended Notes

  • A little bit of history about gender transitions over the decades.
  • The medical and psychological theories behind gender transition have always been controversial.
  • Why would someone struggle with their gender?
  • Which gender roles should you raise your children in? Sasha shares a case that happened with twin boys, and one transitioned into a girl in 1965.
  • The outcome was not great. People played God on a child.
  • In 1965, only 3% of surgeons took sex change requests seriously. However, by the 70s, these surgeries were commonplace.
  • People pushed for experimental interventions too soon without having long-term data.
  • Instead of saying “should we do this?” doctors said, “can we do this?”
  • No one knows why a trans person exists. A psychologist would be asking questions to figure out this key piece.
  • It wasn’t until the 2010s that you’d see a huge uptick in gender dysphoria.
  • Both Stella and Sasha break down why they like Dr. Zucker and the research he’s conducted on child gender issues.
  • There are so many variables. It’s hard to know or pinpoint what makes a child want to transition.
  • Objectively, it may be better to have people come to terms with their biology vs. going through a very risky medical path.
  • There is a heavy medical burden when you try to transition. It is not an easy thing to do. Even certain trans people admit that, if you can avoid it, you would be better.
  • Sasha shares a gender study that used hormone blockers on children for two years and the reports they found.
  • What is the psychological impact of puberty blockers?
  • The criteria to see if you have gender dysphoria in the DSM, 5 out of 8 of them use outdated and stereotypical gender roles. Like if the boy or girl likes playing with the opposite sex toys.
  • There is such a thing as a placebo effect.
  • Sasha shares another study where 4.5% of males ended up dying from the gender intervention.
  • What’s crazy is a lot of these studies are deemed to be successful. Someone dying is not a success. It’s a tragedy.
  • From a medical and psychological perspective, there is a big difference between how you treat gay or lesbian people vs. how you treat a trans person.
  • The treatment for a trans person is to take drugs till the day you die. The treatment for being gay is to live your life.
  • How young is too young to get a child to transition?
  • How do you talk to young people about their gender? It can be quite troubling the different doctors’ approaches on the matter.
  • There doesn’t seem to be any studies showcasing why intervening early is going to be good for the long term wellbeing of a gender dysphoric child.
  • You’re halting the development of a young person, we should take that seriously.
  • Feeling distressed about your body? There might be something else going on and it might not just be strictly gender, to begin with.

Links

About John Money & David Reimer

Transcript

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0:00.0

You're listening to Gender, a wider lens. I'm Stella O'Malley, a psychotherapist in Ireland.

0:09.0

And I'm Sasha Ayyad, an adolescent therapist in the United States.

0:14.0

In this podcast we'll explore gender from a psychological depth perspective.

0:18.9

We're curious about the concept of gender and how it is unfolding in the wider culture.

0:24.0

Join us as we look at gender through a wider lens.

0:28.0

Hi Stella, how are you?

0:31.0

Hi Sasha, I'm good. looking forward to this episode.

0:35.0

Yes, so we are going to try and give an overview of the treatments that have been used for gender issues over the last half a century.

0:50.0

Yeah, and even further, back to the 50s, 60s maybe, I think it's complicated and there's been a lot of theories and a lot of, it's been always kind of an outlier, I suppose, in this world as far as the numbers were small.

1:07.0

And so there was a few experts in the field, and whatever their theories were seemed to carry the day in the era and the more we studied it I think the more shocked we were as we studied it would that be right?

1:22.0

Yeah I think that's fair to say I mean we're at an interesting time in history we happen to be recording this

1:27.1

podcast in December of 2020 and there's been a lot more public attention to the types of treatments used in recent times.

1:38.6

And it gives us an opportunity to look back and really scrutinize and examine the trajectory that brought us here and

1:47.6

whether these treatments have ever had really, really solid foundations and if they've ever been truly justified because now we have

1:56.8

way more patients undergoing these interventions and so there's much more scrutiny on the theory and the rationale behind them.

2:08.3

So shall we start with a little bit of a history lesson, Stella?

2:13.0

I think so.

2:15.0

In my kind of view, the 19th century, in the early 20th century,

2:20.0

it was repressive for an awful lot of different groups, and an awful lot of different groups and an awful lot of different groups really did not thrive and

2:27.9

Having gender dysphoria was definitely a group that did not thrive and they were very much pathologized they were left in the

2:35.2

outskirts people definitely trans this what's the word they they did transition on some level but generally quietly and I think the first the first actual operation was that 1931

2:50.0

1931 that's right and do you know much about it I think it was in Germany it was in Germany I don't know too much about that surgery it was hard to find information but I widely known that in 1952, Christine Jorgensen, formerly George Jorgensen,

...

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