513: Mark Fogel - Becoming a Great Follower, Running World-Class Debriefs, Building A Healthy Culture, & Why Fighter Squadrons Are The Best Teams On Earth
The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk
Ryan Hawk
4.9 • 1.4K Ratings
🗓️ 20 February 2023
⏱️ 56 minutes
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Summary
Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of Learning Leaders from all over the world to receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday to help you start your week off right.
Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com
Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12 https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12
Mark Fogel is a former US Air Force fighter pilot and current squadron commander in the Ohio Air National Guard. He's A graduate of the US Air Force Academy and the Harvard Kennedy School, he is an adjunct lecturer at the University of Dayton, and his TEDx Talk called The Culture of a Fighter Squadron is one of the best I've seen.
Notes:
- American Fighter Sqaudrons are the most effective teams on the planet. Cockiness is unacceptable. Humility is a critical quality and skill to be part of the team.
- The subculture is you check your rank at the door. When you lead a mission, you're in charge of the debrief. I love building a culture where feedback is regularly given both ways. And the trust created amongst the team to be able to do this with psychological safety.
- The real training and learning take place in the debrief…Spending hours pouring over video, computer graphic reenactments, radio calls, everything… To diagnose exactly what went right and what didn't and why. The debriefs can last multiple days to describe 10 minutes of action.
- The person who leads the debrief is the flight leader. That person is not necessarily the most experienced member of the team. Fighter squadrons share the leadership and followership duties constantly. You might have a situation where it's a 24-year-old lieutenant telling a 2-star General in front of the entire room, "You screwed up and this is why we failed the mission because of it." This creates a mixture of perfectionism and humility.
- Building a culture takes time. Trust is built from character and competence.
- How do you reward and incentivize behavior?
- You're modeling what you want others to do.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Now as a leader you need to be conscientious of what kind of feedback you're trying to give, |
| 0:04.8 | but here's the thing as the follower, as the one receiving feedback. You've got to recognize |
| 0:09.1 | what do I need in the moment and ask for it explicitly. |
| 0:16.6 | Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show presented by Incyclobal. I am your host, Ryan Hawke. |
| 0:24.2 | Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawke to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. |
| 0:32.0 | You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, |
| 0:36.3 | will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off |
| 0:41.9 | right. You'll also receive the tales about how my book The Pursuit of Excellence will help you |
| 0:47.2 | become a more effective leader. Text Hawke to 66866 now. On to tonight's featured leader. |
| 0:54.4 | This is the great one. Mark Fogel is a former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot in current squadron |
| 1:00.8 | commander in the Ohio Air National Guard. He's a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy |
| 1:06.8 | and the Harvard Kennedy School. He is an adjunct lecturer at the University of Dayton |
| 1:12.0 | and his TEDx talk called The Culture of a Fighter Squadron is one of the best I've ever seen. |
| 1:19.6 | Now, during this conversation we discuss why an American fighter squadron is the most |
| 1:26.4 | effective team on the planet and how we can build our teams in the business world in a similar |
| 1:33.8 | manner and then the importance of the debrief or sometimes called an after-action review. Mark |
| 1:40.0 | describes how this is done in the military as well as how we can do it in the civilian world |
| 1:45.8 | and then how to know when it's time to lead and when it's time to follow and the importance |
| 1:53.0 | of being an excellent follower. This is not something that's talked about enough and Mark |
| 1:59.8 | shared some great stories about it. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good. It's Mark Fogel. |
| 2:04.3 | Mark is great to have you here on the Learning Leadership, especially a fellow elk. I think the |
| 2:13.1 | only other fellow Elks, my younger brother AJ and the great Kirk Herb Street. So you're the |
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