All right, I'm back here in plenary session, virtual edition.

I'm joined by friend of the show, Dr. Zeb Yem Rojik.

Dr. Yamrojik is a practicing physician.

He is an infectious disease ethicist.

He focuses on the ethics of infectious disease.

And I think this is the sixth time he's been on the show in this pandemic.

Zeb, it's good to see you.

Thanks, and idea. It's good to see you. Thanks for an idea.

It's great to be back.

We have to keep meeting like this.

We have to stop meeting like this, I used to say.

I used to say, but here we are.

Back for more.

That's right.

I mean, you know, there's that saying things need to change, so things remain the same.

And I think we're seeing a lot of the same mistakes for repeating themselves.

I guess my difference is I remember that one of the first times we spoke, you know, you said,

gosh, why are we so, why are we so alone on this island? And I think there's a lot of people coming to the, to reality, to the idea that maybe the

evidence for what we're doing isn't so great, Maybe there's been a lot of harms and so on, but there's also still a lot of people who I think haven't woken up.

Yeah, and that's what this conversation hopefully will cover.

What people who have woken up, I do think we have more company than we did from the first time,

but the persistent reservations against common sense and evidence-based medicine.

...