That moment is best described by the film The Matrix, that moment where he leans back and you see the bullet in slummo.

I saw the words coming out of me

and the way that I related to it at the time

and I think it's the same way I relate to it now

has a lot to do with the fact that my dad was a pastor and

that he had always referred to his profession as a calling. And I'd always had to

defend myself from old ladies at church who would be like are you

going to follow in your father's footsteps which I always thought was crazy

anyway because I was like isn't it supposed to be a calling? You can't make that decision.

Not for the ministry, that's supposed to be a calling.

What are you talking about?

Were you paying attention in joke?

You know, I had that in my head,

but I would always defend myself by saying,

well, no, the stage stage not the pulpit is my call. Hey there it's light and we are back with another episode of At the End of the Tunnel

which is a podcast that shines a light on backstories and particularly on the backstories of people who have taken a leap of faith

away from convention and in the direction of helping or inspiring people through their work or through their

through their nonprofit or in the case of my guest this week through their

art. Back when I was only dreaming about starting a podcast, I had this short list in my mind of the

dozen or so guests that I really wanted to interview. And my guest this week was near the top of that list. His name is

Saul Williams. So I first discovered Saul's work in 1998 after going by myself to see an independent

film called Slam which starred this actor and poet named Saul Williams and his

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