45. Bold Conversations

Lady Killers with Lucy Worsley

BBC

True Crime, History

4.7 • 908 Ratings

🗓️ 17 June 2025

⏱️ 30 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Lucy Worsley returns with another episode of Lady Swindlers, where true crime meets history - with a twist. Joined by historian Ros Crone and comedian, activist and author Deborah Frances-White, Lucy revisits the stories of women who defied societal norms through audacious crimes.

They also discuss what their own swindler names would be.

This episode focuses on Celia Cooney, the Bobbed Haired Bandit of 1920s New York; Mary Bateman, the Yorkshire Witch, whose supernatural scams turned deadly; Catharine Murphy, the Money Maker, a counterfeiter working from her kitchen table; and Annie Gordon Baillie, a serial swindler with more than 40 false names.

Through their stories, Lucy, Rosalind and Deborah explore themes of inequality, gendered justice, and the fine line between boldness and desperation while reflecting on how societal constraints push these women to extremes.

Historian Ros Crone provides historical context on the harsh realities they face, from public dissections to burning at the stake.

The conversation also explores modern issues like the erosion of empathy in polarised debates and the lingering gaps in women’s healthcare.

In this episode Lucy asks what drives women to break the rules - and what can their stories teach us about our life today?

Producer: Riham Moussa Readers: Clare Corbett, Laurel Lefkow, Jonathan Keeble, Alex Phelps Singer: Olivia Bloore Historical Consultant: Rosalind Crone Executive Producer: Kirsty Hunter

A StoryHunter production for BBC Radio 4.

Transcript

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0:00.0	What is love?
0:03.0	Is it chemistry, fate or a disaster waiting to happen?
0:07.0	Sometimes you mistake other things for love.
0:10.0	Join me, Ryland, on my new podcast as I ask experts and a few familiar faces what love really means.
0:16.3	Because it turns out it's a bit more complicated than happily ever after.
0:20.7	You should think of it as the daily commitment you make to someone that you care about.
0:25.2	Ryland, how to be in love. Listen on BBC Sounds.
0:31.2	BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.
0:34.9	You're about to listen to a brand new series of Lady Swindlers with Lucy Worsley.
0:39.5	New episodes will be released weekly wherever you get your podcasts, but if you're in the
0:43.3	UK, you can listen to the latest episodes a week early, first on BBC Sounds.
0:51.3	Welcome to Lady Swindlers with me, Lucy Worsley, where true crime meets history with a twist.
1:03.8	This series, we're on the trail of swindlers, hustlers and women on the make.
1:10.1	Join me and my all-female team of detectives as we travel around the world and back through time to meet women who didn't play by the rules.
1:20.1	These aren't just historical who done it, but more why done it? What were their motives? And what might these audacious crimes tell us about women's lives today?
1:33.5	Just before we begin, the cases we were about to talk about were covered in early episodes of this series of ladies swindlers.
1:39.9	So if you haven't listened to those yet, consider this your spoiler alert.
1:46.6	Our Lady Swindlers commit a kaleidoscope of crimes.
1:52.2	Celia Cooney, the stylish, bobbed-haired bandit.
1:56.4	For her, crime is just another cool, collected adventure.
2:01.2	I walked into the store cold as a cucumber, the little automatic hidden in my pocket.
2:06.3	I was boss and they stood in a line with their mouths gaping and their eyes popping, looking so silly.
	...

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