It's funny because I would often hear critics of occultism cite the Emerald Tablet and say, you know, as above, so below, that's the occult. That's the occult thinking. And anybody who says, as above, so below is clearly an occult is. And I'm like, well, didn't Jesus say that? Isn't that the prayer that we have? That God's will be on earth as it is in heaven, isn't that what as above so below means?

But at the same time, I kind of understand, I think that the way you presented it is the best way

of understanding it. And you see that in the development, for example, of technology in the Bible,

which is that on the one hand, you have a, you know, the kind of Enochian cane line of technology,

which is something like stealing the fire from heaven,

like stealing the secrets from above,

bringing them down to earth in order to serve our purposes

and to serve our greed.

But then you have another tradition,

which is the tradition of building of the tabernacle

and of the temple, which is also in some ways

to have certain things from heaven be revealed to us

so that we can build something in the world

that is a reflection of heaven.

And so it seems like you said, in some ways,

it's just really about what is directed.

And so when you look at alchemical traditions,

you have some traditions which are more about

the notion of finding the philosopher's stone for its own sake.

That is, what can we see in the world

that is a kind of image of what is above?

And how can we meditate and participate in those images

...