On this episode of the Symbolic World podcast, I'm putting up the very first public conversation that I had with Dr. Jordan Peterson.

This was originally posted on his YouTube channel, but I thought it would be interesting for people to follow the story a little bit of how all of this came about.

I met Jordan in 2015 because I was interested in some of his ideas on symbolism.

And then in 2016, everything blew up around him.

Everybody knows the story about gender pronouns and everything that was happening.

And it was very strange because I had seen him for the very first time six months before that.

I had seen him in the spring of 2016. It was the first time I had met him in person.

And when I met him, I had a very strange intuition that I had to communicate one information

to him. And the information that I had to communicate had to do with his vision of chaos.

Because Jordan often talked about chaos, and he talked about chaos as being on the edge of being, so on the outside of the city.

But for some reason, I had the intuition that he really needed to also understand that chaos exists in between things as well,

that we need to understand it that way, that in between categories, there are buffers of chaos

which separate the categories, but also, let's say, is the place where there's an aspect of confusion,

an aspect of indeterminacy between the categories.

And so I talked about the monsters on the bridges.

I talked about this notion of the crossing of the river.

And so six months later, when everything exploded around him concerning gender pronoun

and the notion of people who have identities or pronouns that don't totally fit within

normal categories, I was really surprised.

And so since I had met him, Jordan had asked me to come on his channel to do an interview,

to talk about art, to talk about symbolism.

And when I went to see him in the fall of 2016, it was two weeks after everything had blown up around him.

...